I’m interested on seeing her overall conformation. Do you have a good picture?
[QUOTE=JB;8531441]
I’m interested on seeing her overall conformation. Do you have a good picture?[/QUOTE]
I made a photo of her my profile picture – sorry it isn’t a great angle for evaluating conformation, but it’s all I’ve got at the moment!
On the subject of inheriting behavior: My horses’s dam always pawed at her food dish/meal times. I visited my boy 5 hours after he landed on the ground. I distinctly remember petting him for a moment and then he turned around to nurse. Pawed at the ground as he started nursing. 5 hours in. He has always pawed at meals since that day and hence, has a feed bucket either attached to a wall or fence (5 years later).
I have tried curb it at times and we have reached an agreement he can paw while others get fed and while he his eating, but must be pleasant and still while I approach with his bucket, dump it and walk away. No being piggy while I am within 5 feet of him.
I don’t think it is inherited as much as it is learned. And learned quickly. I would be hesitant to breed any mare with any behavioral trait I can’t tolerate. Pawing at dinner time is low on that list of behaviors…
[QUOTE=Nevada10;8531568]
I made a photo of her my profile picture – sorry it isn’t a great angle for evaluating conformation, but it’s all I’ve got at the moment![/QUOTE]
How would you describe her conformation? You’re right, it’s hard to tell, but this makes her look a bit camped out. Is that what you see?
Is this the same mare that you made a post last year about trying to breed?
[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;8532201]
Is this the same mare that you made a post last year about trying to breed?[/QUOTE]
No. Different mare.
[QUOTE=JB;8531636]
How would you describe her conformation? You’re right, it’s hard to tell, but this makes her look a bit camped out. Is that what you see?[/QUOTE]
She isn’t camped out, though she does look it from that angle. Her patterns are a bit long and her RH is toed in. She rope walks behind.
[QUOTE=Nevada10;8532486]
She isn’t camped out, though she does look it from that angle. Her patterns are a bit long and her RH is toed in. She rope walks behind.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but the more you describe the conformational and functional problems with this mare, the less I would want to pass those on by breeding her. If you really have to have a foal out of her, the only pregnancy I would do with her is as a recip mare for another mare’s embryo.
wait - this mare rope-walks, and you want to BREED her?
okay, the shrew in me is coming out - you have a mare that has possible physical issues (and bad manners), career ending injury, confirmed conformational issues, and now a possible neurologic issue and you want to breed her?
think about that for a moment. please do NOT breed this horse. if she can’t support being ridden she probably cannot support carrying a foal…
ETA: OP, mea culpa - i confused you with another poster who posted recently about a similar situation. anyway, still don’t think the mare should be bred.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8532751]
wait - this mare rope-walks, and you want to BREED her?
okay, the shrew in me is coming out - you have a mare that has possible physical issues (bad manners, aggression, difficult U/S), a crappy personality, confirmed conformational issues, and now a possible neurologic issue and you want to breed her?
think about that for a moment. please do NOT breed this horse.[/QUOTE]
I think you are being a bit harsh on the mare. So she runs her teeth on her stall wall and is pushy about being let out after being stalled for more than 10 hours. I don’t see aggression there I see a horse that would prefer more turn-out.
I didn’t see anything in this thread to suggest difficult u/s or a crappy personality. Yes it sounds like she has conformation issues in the long pasterns and the RH being toed in. I have seen horses that “rope walk” if they are base narrow and it is not neurological. I have seen horses with a bad shoe job “rope walk”.
Does that mean that this horse is worth breeding, probably not. But I still think you are making this horse out to be a total piece of crap when she likely isn’t.
Yes we base any of our responses on what the OP tells us. However conformation evaluation is difficult for many people that own horses. Likely without good photos and maybe some video we don’t really know if OP is being barn blind or overly harsh on her evaluation.
[QUOTE=SonnysMom;8532960]
I think you are being a bit harsh on the mare. So she runs her teeth on her stall wall and is pushy about being let out after being stalled for more than 10 hours. I don’t see aggression there I see a horse that would prefer more turn-out.
I didn’t see anything in this thread to suggest difficult u/s or a crappy personality. Yes it sounds like she has conformation issues in the long pasterns and the RH being toed in. I have seen horses that “rope walk” if they are base narrow and it is not neurological. I have seen horses with a bad shoe job “rope walk”.
Does that mean that this horse is worth breeding, probably not. But I still think you are making this horse out to be a total piece of crap when she likely isn’t.
Yes we base any of our responses on what the OP tells us. However conformation evaluation is difficult for many people that own horses. Likely without good photos and maybe some video we don’t really know if OP is being barn blind or overly harsh on her evaluation.[/QUOTE]
OP has said all of this stuff herself. i am going off what she wrote here and in other posts.
IMHO i really don’t think any horse that has sustained a career ending injury of the soft tissue variety due to regular work (and not, say, a freak accident, rigors of racing or high level/intensity sport) should ever be a candidate for breeding. you breed the best. you don’t (or shouldn’t) be breeding a horse that failed out of a regular program.
rope walking can be neurological or conformational. from the picture, it doesn’t look conformational.
IMHO without a good conformation picture, we can’t really say anything about not breeding her due to her conformation.
“Her pasterns are a bit long and her RH is toed in.”
Nothing about that says “run far and fast from breeding her”. One person’s “hate” (the OP’s word) is another person’s “meh, just find a stallion who regularly fixes those things”.
Pasterns a “bit long” are not typically the cause of suspensory issues. Neither is a slight toe-in.
The mare is rope-walking - all this combined suggests to me perhaps she has not been comfortable in her hind end for a while - injury perhaps that no one has noticed or figured out - and that, more than anything, may be the cause of her suspensory issues, her compensating and compensating until structures finally gave out.
It is possible the mare is being thrown under the bus based on symptoms the OP is seeing, rather than reality.
Just some thoughts 
[QUOTE=beowulf;8532751]
wait - this mare rope-walks, and you want to BREED her?
okay, the shrew in me is coming out - you have a mare that has possible physical issues (bad manners, aggression, difficult U/S), a crappy personality, confirmed conformational issues, and now a possible neurologic issue and you want to breed her?
think about that for a moment. please do NOT breed this horse.[/QUOTE]
Whoa whoa whoa. Definitely no neurological issue – she had an extremely thorough evaluation by a top lameness vet when when went lame. She’s not aggressive – she’s bored and does it for attention. And where did you get difficult under saddle? She is fabulous to ride. The whole reason I posted is because I was CURIOUS about the inheritability of her bad traits. I wasn’t considering breeding her, but 4 different trainers (trainers, not breeders, which is why I’m asking the opinion of breeders) have suggested it because its uncommon to find a TB who moves and jumps as nicely as her, and is very quiet. I posted because I was wondering if there would be a market for her as broodmare with these traits. I was considering using her as an ET recipient from my other mare who I am going to breed (who has excellent conformation, an excellent temperament, and a show record a mile long).
then why does she ropewalk?
in my experience it is not at all uncommon to find nice moving/jumping, exceptionally well put together TBs that are SOUND. the farm i train at has had dozens over the years that people mistake for WBs. we have two in our front yard… my friend has one in her yard… you get the picture - nice moving TBs are out there and really not uncommon. your mare is missing a huge part of the equation here: not conformationally or functionally sound.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8533958]
then why does she ropewalk?[/QUOTE]
http://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.cfm?number=B1400#Way
Because that’s how base narrow, toed in horses move (At least in the front, the article doesn’t address the hind, but I assume the mechanics are the same). I’m a little confused as to why you this this is such a huge issue. None of the vets (two of which are ISLEP certified), farriers, trainers or judges who has looked at her have been bothered by the way she moves (she’s moved this way since the day I had her vetted), which is only visible at a walk, if you’re standing directly in behind her. I recognize that it’s a flaw (which is why I mentioned it), just like paddling is, but it doesn’t indicate a neurological horse.
I’m aware that base narrow horses have the propensity to ropewalk – but you said nothing about her being base narrow, just only that you hated her conformation. Horses with cervical arthritis, spinal impingement, stifle injuries, hock injuries, SI issues can also rope-walk. Most horsemen would think rope-walking is a serious issue… and most horsemen wouldn’t breed a horse that rope-walks period.
As I said above, a good moving TB is not a rarity and almost all of them can jump… If you truly want a foal I think buying one from quality parents is a much better route than taking a horse with flaws and breeding it.
Beowulf, color me confused. You just posted a horse on Eventing “sublime twist” that clearly rope walks and suggested him as a great prospect, and now you are all over this poster like it is the end of the world. ???
Not saying OP should breed her horse, she probably shouldn’t but it is very hard to say without actually seeing it and I hesitate because it sounds like multiple experienced people that have seen it are telling her yes.
OP, maybe you should connect with actual sport horse breeders with pics and videos of the horse to get an evaluation. That will be more useful to you I think.
I have known my mare since she was born and purchased her at 6 months old. I purchased her from my trainer. I was frequently at the barn riding my other horse and also worked two afternoons per week at the barn. My mare’s dam had decent manners and was good under saddle. She was a horror at feeding time. She would strike the front wall repeatedly when she would hear feeding time starting. She would also kick with her hind foot at the side wall. You had to be careful to keep the bucket of feed between you and her mouth when dumping into her feed tub, because she would try to bite you. We never tried to do anything with her in her stall during feeding time because she would swing her butt towards you and threaten to kick. We had to wean my mare a little early as dam would try to kick the crap out of her if she stuck head into feed tub. My mare never acquired the excess kicking habit, but when she was younger, you had to be careful. She would swing her butt at you if you went in her stall when she was eating. If you tried to brush her or do anything else while eating and you got close to feed tub she would threaten to bite. With some punishment and careful consistent handling, she has outgrown the kicking threat. She still lays her ears back when she is eating, but you can brush or handle her. I would say no to breeding your mare based on the conformation issue, but depending on behavior issues, I think many of those can be managed.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8534885]
Beowulf, color me confused. You just posted a horse on Eventing “sublime twist” that clearly rope walks and suggested him as a great prospect, and now you are all over this poster like it is the end of the world. ???
Not saying OP should breed her horse, she probably shouldn’t but it is very hard to say without actually seeing it and I hesitate because it sounds like multiple experienced people that have seen it are telling her yes.
OP, maybe you should connect with actual sport horse breeders with pics and videos of the horse to get an evaluation. That will be more useful to you I think.[/QUOTE]
fordtraktor, sublime twist is a gelding. keep in mind that OP’s horse has a suspensory injury behind that ended her career - not sure if it is wise to be breeding a horse that ropewalks out of discomfort or injury… lots of stress on that limb. if you’re going to mention my other posts, please do so correctly - i mentioned nothing about him being a great prospect – that horse also has 46 starts and was sound for the job they intended him to do.
here’s my post:
I believe this is my first time posting a T2T horse - look at this nice gelding! RRP Eligible. Nice set of clean legs for a horse with 46 starts.
Page:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...sj0ma616-vc-OG
Pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sublime+twist
there is literally 3 seconds where the walk is visible. IMHO not enough time to make an accurate assessment on if he is rope-walking or just uncomfortable. he has had no work and is fresh off the track and to me, looks very stiff. i generally as a rule do not like to point out unsoundness[es] that i see in charity/rescue/non-profit horses beyond a vague word like uncomfortable or stiff. i post horses from NV and CANTER NE all the time - not all of them are world beaters, and i think every single one of them is deserving of a home – not just the ones that are perfectly sound and perfectly conformed. someone could do a PPE with this horse and figure it out.
i am not “all over the poster like it is the end of the world” – i am voicing my opinion, which the OP asked for. OP is responding to me, so i am responding back. my opinion is that you do not breed unsound horses with conformation that predisposes them to be unsound.
are you saying you do not agree with me?
The trotting part of the video where he is moving away is where I observed the rope walking motion. he clearly swings one leg is front of the other behind. I am just surprised you recommended that horse to COTHers given your posts on this thread. I mean really, should we be eventing neuro horses?
I have been clear what I think, I haven’t seen this horse so I don’t know. And I think the horse you posted is a fine prospect even though it rope walks but I think your statement on this thread are overblown. It is uneven behind though which is much more concerning than the rope walking. I wouldn’t look at it based on that.
It is not my practice to recommend horses to people, even Internet strangers, that I think might be unsound.
But your taste in horses and mine clearly doesn’t always match up, you post a lot of horses you say are “awesome movers” that I don’t like at all. I have a horse I describe as an “average mover at best” that moves better than most of them ever will. And he is. My horse. An average mover. I am not barn blind.
That is why I can’t say a thing about OP’s horse. She says some pretty negative things about it but…i know all my horses’ weaknesses too and can see doing the same. Without pics and video who knows.
