Breeding a mare with bad habits from the track

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8535500]
The trotting part of the video where he is moving away is where I observed the rope walking motion. he clearly swings one leg is front of the other behind. I am just surprised you recommended that horse to COTHers given your posts on this thread. I mean really, should we be eventing neuro horses?

I have been clear what I think, I haven’t seen this horse so I don’t know. And I think the horse you posted is a fine prospect even though it rope walks but I think your statement on this thread are overblown. It is uneven behind though which is much more concerning than the rope walking. I wouldn’t look at it based on that.

It is not my practice to recommend horses to people, even Internet strangers, that I think might be unsound.

But your taste in horses and mine clearly doesn’t always match up, you post a lot of horses you say are “awesome movers” that I don’t like at all. I have a horse I describe as an “average mover at best” that moves better than most of them ever will. And he is. My horse. An average mover. I am not barn blind.

That is why I can’t say a thing about OP’s horse. She says some pretty negative things about it but…i know all my horses’ weaknesses too and can see doing the same. Without pics and video who knows.[/QUOTE]

And I am sure that if you posted the horses you loved, you’d find someone that said it wasn’t their type of horse too - including me! What is your point? I am really scratching my head here on why you are attempting to attack my credibility because I network all types with the OTTB rehoming organizations I volunteer with, not just the perfect ones. If I only posted the perfect ones, I’d never post. I think that horse in particular would benefit from some letdown time and a good vet to DDX - beyond that, he looks like a nice horse who would make a nice project for someone dedicated to resolving anything he sustained during his long racing career. Apples to oranges here becauses I am not sure why you brought him up - I would never breed him… and he’s a gelding. So not at all germane to the topic at hand. :rolleyes:

I don’t think it is overblown to say absolutely do not breed a horse who’s “conformation you hate” who “rope walks behind”. Again, I am just going off of what OP has said here and in other threads about this mare. If that makes me a villain, fine – one less horse in the world that anyone has to worry about.

[fordtraktor]

Well, I have recommended horses before from CANTER, etc, but not ones I thought were unsound. You are the one that said you link horses for which you “don’t like to point out unsoundness”. That to me is bizarre. I would never link a horse I considered might be off. I would rather never post. It is not apples to oranges because there are tons of inexperienced people out there who will adopt and then have a lame horse they are then stuck with for 20 years. It is exactly the same as breeding a horse that will go lame young.

I buy horses off the track but not ones as lame as that. It is a real risk they will never come sound. It doesn’t really have to do with “my type” so much as with “my type” is “not lame.”

I said in my first post OP should probably not breed the horse but it might be a candidate for ET. Just the follow up posts saying four trainers said she should breed it that gave me pause. But definitely the presumption is no. Still, without pics and video, it is so hard to say. Horse could be anything.

[beowulf]

this is what PPEs are for, fordtraktor…

[fordtraktor]

Whatever. I went back and looked. I was thinking of the “Almost a Fools Day” horse you said was a good mover. It wasn’t. And if you can see a horse is lame, you ought not to recommend it. But that one wasn’t lame, it was just bad. They said it was good and you repeated it, goodness knows why. I watched the video again and it still moved like a plow horse. I had a pony once that moved like that, he was a great pony and honest as the day is long and did well in the jumpers but he was not a good mover.

I don’t see why you anyone would recommend horses and then assume people will naturally find out their flaws, the kind of people who often adopt OTTBs…well, they don’t always have the experience to see issues. And they may or may not get extensive PPEs. I would feel guilty about it.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8535720]
Whatever. I went back and looked. I was thinking of the “Almost a Fools Day” horse you said was a good mover. It wasn’t. And if you can see a horse is lame, you ought not to recommend it. But that one wasn’t lame, it was just bad. They said it was good and you repeated it, goodness knows why. I watched the video again and it still moved like a plow horse.[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry. You really seem to have an axe to grind simply because I pointed out OP’s words made it sound as if the mare was not a breeding candidate. You may note I am not the only person who thinks this on this thread.

OP asked if she should breed her mare. Look at the responses and the likes on each response - the collective answer is no. One of the most liked posts has over 17 members liking it – this to me says many people are echoing what myself and other posters have said, “do not breed this mare”. Respectfully speaking, this is my last post on this thread because I don’t see the point in arguing any further.

[DarkBayUnicorn]

pouring a drink and waiting for the next retort @fordtracker @beowulf

[fordtraktor]

I don’t care one way or the other, just don’t like to see people recommend lame horses in one thread – and then acknowledge they are doing it! – and then chastise people in such a holier than thou way the next minute. Can’t you see the issue?!? Anyway, done here. Wish you all the best but really, it is the outside of enough to adopt this attitude when you are yourself recommending horses to people that very likely have worse problems.

[SonnysMom]

I am with fordtraktor on this. beowolf I think you are being way too hard on this thread. I think you are overblowing what OP said about the horse. You immediately jumped to rope walking being neurological. As fordtraktor pointed out you recommended a gelding that rope walks. If you really felt that rope walking is neurological why would you ever recommend a horse that rope walks for anything?
You put things in one of your posts that the OP did not say. The horse was nice under saddle, she is not aggressive. It was like you took the OPs description and decided she was down playing her faults and you amped them up plus added a few.
The picture the OP posted is not a conformation picture you can tell anything about her hind end.
OP never said how the career ending injury occurred. She may think the conformation contributed. What does her vet and trainers think? Maybe she had low level injuries from the track that made it so she wouldn’t hold up to her new job. We don’t know how long she raced and what level. We don’t know if OP had a PPE done before she bought her. We don’t know if the race trainer was a good one or a bottom feeder that didn’t properly rehab prior injuries and just masked them.

Likely this mare should not be bred. But OP was also asking about using her for an ET mare. I could see most people not wanting to take the chance on using a maiden mare for ET but in a later post OP was wondering about using her as an ET mare or another one of her mares.

You have just fabricated additional bad traits about this mare out of thin air and then continue to defend yourself. This is somebodies horse that they may actually love. It is one thing to regurgitate what the OP wrote about the horse and say hey I don’t think she should be bred. But you added things the OP didn’t say about the horse, decided the mare was aggressive and then was snarky in how you told her she shouldn’t breed this horse that you have now made to sound like a total POS that maybe should be euthanized since she is so nasty and worthless.
There are more tactful ways to stress that this mare shouldn’t be bred. Many other people managed to do that without being insulting and making up crap that the OP didn’t say.

[cripplecreekfrm]

I can’t speak of the conformation issues but as for temperament. I have a SUPER talented mare that has many bad habits due to bad handling early in life. She and I have come to terms and since she is at my home farm I’m the only one handling her. I have grown to adore her but I would not wish her on my worst enemy either on the ground or under saddle. With that being said I have gotten 3 super foals out of her and am planning on breeding her one last time back to the same stallion as my youngest foal this spring before he is gelded. None of her foals have her behavioral issues. In fact her oldest which is coming 5 is so easy to deal with he is actually being used lightly in a beginner lesson program. She is conformationally correct though so the only thing I was worried about her passing is her personality.

[JB]

[QUOTE=SonnysMom;8536280]

OP never said how the career ending injury occurred. She may think the conformation contributed. [/QUOTE]
Exactly why I’m interested in a few good pictures - good conformation picture, good picture from behind.

[Dressagelvr]

Broken down by 8? No chance this mare should be bred. Sorry, but it would be absolutely reckless to even contemplate it. Why is it so hard for people to realize that only the best should be bred?

And I think it is too soon to say whether she could even be an ET recipient. Her hind end just might never be able to take the stress of pregnancy.

Best option is to let her retire and be a companion. Tough news and I am sorry for it.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I would not breed this mare either. I don’t know if ET is a good idea…doesn’t sound like it yet. I understand your frustration with a young, bored horse who needs a job. I agree that I would try to find her a companion home at this point.

There are so many exceptional, proven mares available to be leased to breed custom foals if that is a desire (or just buy a foal on the ground).

Regarding hind legs, I have observed that base narrow mares seem to pass that pretty consistently, even though straightness behind (too much, too little) seems to be more changeable in the next generation with careful stallion choice. IDK what everyone else has observed…

[fordtraktor]

As a blanket rule that’s absurd. Especially with TBs that have a significant racing record. One bad step is all it takes. Lots of horses with lovely conformation have pasture accidents and take bad steps. “Broken down by 8” is meaningless without context. Plenty of unsound horses have been excellent producers. It SOUNDS like this horse has conformation issues that indicate it should not be bred, though.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Who are you talking to fordtraktor? I don’t think it is “absurd” to say I wouldn’t breed the mare. The OP strongly stated he/she HATES the hind end conformation and was wondering how heritable it was. It was then added the horse was very base narrow, toed in and rope walked…

OP, if the vet ok’s her as a recipient, then that is who I would go by. It’s so hard to evaluate over the internet.

[QUOTE=Nevada10;8529628]
The bad: she has bad stall manners/habits, which I attribute to life on the track, but can’t say for sure since I didn’t know her before she raced. Also, I HATE her hind leg conformation, and blame it for ending her career prematurely (bilateral hind suspensory desmopathy). [/QUOTE]

[fordtraktor]

Not responding to you, but deleted. I don’t disagree with you

[Mistysmom]

I would definitely not breed this mare due to the hind leg weakness. Any risk of passing on a medical condition to a foal is just too much risk IMO. The foal spends the first 6 months of it’s life with its dam so the mare’s influence on the foal is quite large. Many, if not all, of her quirks or issues will be picked up by the foal. With the cost and risks of breeding and raising youngsters, it is far easier to just buy a quality foal. This way you can see what you get and buy what you want