Following the breeding of modern eventing horses. It all looks WB on paper but it seems that on closer look there is still a lot of TB involved.
Found great article on Lion D’Angers young horse champs, http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2013/10/world-young-eventing-horse-championships-2013/
What do you think?
I spent many years breeding high end TBs for eventing. I did my best to concentrate some of NZs best bloodlines. Then the short format began to be talked about. I stopped my breeding program immediately. I felt any WB could complete the course and the old style, tough, rangey, big-striding, big-hearted TB would no longer win against the sharp-jumping and huge moving WBs.
Turns out I was only partly right. Sure the WBs bought a better dressage test and better jumping ability for the final day but there is still a place for the TB. They hold their own in today’s competitions.
I no longer breed specifically for eventers but I feel that the best eventer today is one with a large % quality TB blood with a bit of refined WB. Best of all worlds! 
You are right indeed. Interesting to see German Michael Jung’s quote that for a 4 Star event he still needs a TB.
TB all the way for me still, for the top end eventing especially. There seems to be a myth that TBs cannot move well enough for dressage yet the TB is always turned to to improve the warmblood. A touch of something else is often found and can be beneficial but the majority still TB.
In light of this need for TB blood, it is disappointing that there are so few TBs or high % TB stallions available for breeding in NA. Many of the top event horses in the world today like Sam and Abraxxas were developed by crossing proven sport warmblood lines with considerable TB blood. There is a limit to even the proven overseas stallions we can get semen for here, and if one is limited to fresh semen the list of available stallions is disappointingly short.
I have some lovely warmblood mares that I would love to breed to high quality TB stallions to create an all around athlete, yet there are so few that are approved into the warmblood registries (Hanoverian, Holsteiner) that I use. I have ended up breeding for more dressage types and hoping that I would get something that could event as a by-product, due to the limited availability of TB stallions (Coconut Grove is the only one I’ve used thus far). It would be nice to see these registries acknowledge eventing as a discipline to breed for and encourage approval of high quality sport-oriented TB stallions. It’s great that the ATA has recently approved several TB stallions (Sea Accounts, Sea Lion, plus Virginian Sky who is mostly TB); this is good news for breeders of event horses. Hopefully the others will soon follow suit.
I’m obviously partial to the IDSH. I think now the combination is more TB/WB/ID - for top levels probably 50%/25%/25% and TB may be higher depending how the WB is bred. There are a fair number of WB that are 50-66% TB, so often there is a large contribution from the TB even if they owner/rider lists the horse as WB.
Short format changed everything so much. Not only did it remove the endurance component, but now the FEI has even redefined the purpose of the sport and its phases. It also seems to be moving to the German vision of eventing’s future, which, of course, benefits the German breeding establishment.
All this has come about since 2000.
The Germans don’t look as if they control the FEI, but it certainly looks as if they do behind the official front. They have never had a strong presence on the eventing committee, but their views are adopted. The FEI proposed dropping the dressage coefficient from 1.5 to 1 twice and both times the effort was scuttled. I’ve heard a rumor that the Germans scuttled it behind the scenes.
TB or mostly TB with a dash of WB or ID for me. Unfortunately that really limits your options on papers. The German registries are not going to start approving lots of TB stallions in NA, they would be cutting their own throats. So you either have to find an approved WB stallion with lots of TB (and at least some wb registries limit the % allowed) or a 1/2 RID stallion (1/8 ID foals, which IMHO are preferable for eventing, only get a COP) or don’t worry about riding papers. Most eventers don’t care much and there is always PHR and AWS if you want to keep track of bloodlines and qualify for year end awards.
Jennifer
I agree that it is full TB or mostly TB -at least 50%, but preferably more, 3/4 or more.
The remaining % can be WB (I prefer jumping blood), RID or Connemara.
In my opinion, it doesn’t matter what the ‘brand on the hip’ says, what matters is the blood, literally.
And a horse that is 3/4 TB is a TB to me.
In my experience, eventers, both breeders and buyers, don’t really care about the registry.
Go back and look at Badminton Burlgley, World Champ, OG results from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. The best horses back then were predominantly horses that were mostly 3/4 and 7/8s TB horses.
It is the same today.
Things haven’t changed as much as people make out.
The thing that has changed is that people are more purposely breeding event horses now, in the old days many of them were Irish and British bred, with a hit and miss pattern of breeding and often failed showjumpers. People got more scientific about breeding eventers and introduced WB blood to help with paces. Which made perfect sense. The Irish started using WB sires like Cavalier Royale in the late 80s, accelerating in the 90’s, long before the short format was introduced.
If the short format had never been introduced, the same bloodlines would still be dominating.
[QUOTE=Fred;7228014]
I agree that it is full TB or mostly TB -at least 50%, but preferably more, 3/4 or more.
The remaining % can be WB (I prefer jumping blood), RID or Connemara.
In my opinion, it doesn’t matter what the ‘brand on the hip’ says, what matters is the blood, literally.
And a horse that is 3/4 TB is a TB to me.
In my experience, eventers, both breeders and buyers, don’t really care about the registry.[/QUOTE]
I agree that most buyers of event horses or event prospects don’t care about registry. Most event riders seem to know very little about bloodlines; it is the particular athlete in front of them that is important. For this reason, though, people expect to pay less for event prospects than for dressage or jumper prospects. It is probably for this reason that there are few breeders who specifically breed event horses, compared with the numbers of dressage and jumper breeders. It is difficult to breed an event horse as the eventer’s brain is the most important factor, and this is more difficult to predictably produce than movement or jump.
As an event rider, I want to breed horses that are suitable for eventing at the upper levels. However, I also want my horses to be highly marketable in the event that they do not have what it takes to be eventers; ergo, I want nice moving, good jumping horses with a sufficient amount of TB in them, and I want these to be registrable because, let’s face it, registered and branded warmblood horses are more valuable than unregistered TB crosses. I would like to have access to TB stallions that allow me to pursue my goal of breeding upper level event horses that are still talented enough to be suitable for another discipline. It seems like the Germans have figured out how to breed horses like this, such as Abraxxas, Butts Leon, Serve Well, La Biosthetique Sam, etc.
Jung said in the article that you don’t need any TB all the way up 3* now. He does seem to think that 50% TB is needed for 4*s. And if you look at the blood percentages that Hector published, there is less and less at Le Lion.
Mark Todd and Phillip Dutton both favor the new Zealand tb as does jimmy wofford. I believe the short program completely killed the sport. I think the super technical courses being used to weed out horses rather than true eventing just isn’t cool. I definitely see the Europeans crying because their big warmbloods just couldn’t hold up for it. They were phenomenal for dressage but just didn’t bounce back for show jumping as they were too tired. Also of the Rolex horses that have died in last several years were warmblood or warmblood cross. Incredibly sad yes I know there have been tb fatalities but the ones that stand out are wb. I think with a lot of tb web could be competitive. I find it funny instead of breeding a horse for the sport, the Europeans change it to where their horses can be competitive. I still remember David o Connors dressage test blowing everyone away in the Olympics. That was when we saw the formats changing. They don’t take not having a superior horse well.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;7228038]
Go back and look at Badminton Burlgley, World Champ, OG results from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. The best horses back then were predominantly horses that were mostly 3/4 and 7/8s TB horses.
It is the same today.
Things haven’t changed as much as people make out.
The thing that has changed is that people are more purposely breeding event horses now, in the old days many of them were Irish and British bred, with a hit and miss pattern of breeding and often failed showjumpers. People got more scientific about breeding eventers and introduced WB blood to help with paces. Which made perfect sense. The Irish started using WB sires like Cavalier Royale in the late 80s, accelerating in the 90’s, long before the short format was introduced.
If the short format had never been introduced, the same bloodlines would still be dominating.[/QUOTE]
What you’re missing, drumbiggle, is that the type of horse that succeeded with the long format versus short forum is nevertheless different.
As I recall an attempt was made to make crosscountry into a sort of galloping stadium not long after the long format was done away with, but it was just too dangerous and designs reverted back to more of the '90’s style of crosscountry, which requires a good blend of speed and accuracy. So a more reliable dressage horse and a less independent sort of XC horse is more relevant to success than in the old long format days, but a high degree of TB is still important of course.
I have a full TB mare that I hope to breed to a “heavy on the TB” warmblood for my next eventer. I’d be thrilled with a 3/4 TB. My trainer advised against breeding her to a full TB because should I ever have to sell, I would get more for a “WB.” I just love my TB though a little warmblood in there might get me something a little stouter with better feet (my girl needs 4 shoes- would love to have a horse who could go for less in the shoe department).
Many warmblood stallions are over 40% xx or ox so if the mother is T/B the offspring is 60-% or so T/B. OF course you need to have a father that is the right type and more important the offspring that inherits the right type. If look more like a modern warmblood or T/B it will probably have the go and endurance. Nothing is 100% though. I am breeding one foal a year for the 3 event market. Love the sport! Most fun I ever had was riding cross country in competition…or just practicing for that matter!
Both Mark Todd and Phillip Dutton have gone almost exclusively to WBs. Todd’s horse almost didn’t get around the Olympic course; by the end it looked totally exhausted.
I did not start out specifically to breed event horses.
I started out breeding racehorses. But as my young horses came off the track, they were being sold to event homes. And it finally occurred to me that I was breeding event horses.
I always bred a certain type, looked for certain things in my mares and in the outside stallions I bred to. What I aimed to breed wereTBs who were sound, sane (and beautiful) athletes.
My goal in breeding sporthorses initially was not specifically event horses, but rather athletes with good movement, good minds, and great jump.
I started to introduce some WB blood into my program, specifically Holsteiner with a lot of TB blood. Those ‘WBs’ were/are in fact 11/16 TB.
One of them was just at a 3 day George Morris clinic, and George called her “his kind of horse”.
I am sure this mare would have been an outstanding event horse, but she is also a lovely hunter. She is a 3rd generation homebred.
To clarify: I am not advocating NOT registering horses (there seems to be some misunderstanding) - but rather it has been my observation that many people do not care about the registry.
As for stallions having enough TB blood? That was also something I had problems with. Last year I bred my homebred AFR daughter, full TB, full sister to an Advanced event horse and winning Grand Prix jumper (also bred by me).
I was limited to fresh cooled semen, and because of CEM, within Canada, and found that there were very few WB stallions with a high % of TB blood, at least in Canada.
I ended up breeding her to VDL Windsor (Indoctro/Ahorn) who shows in the jumper ring, and who is a 1/2 brother to VDL Ulando.
The resulting foal is of refined type, very athletic and springy.
Will he be an UL eventer though, I don’t know. Certainly a jumper.
[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7228271]
Mark Todd and Phillip Dutton both favor the new Zealand tb as does jimmy wofford. I believe the short program completely killed the sport. I think the super technical courses being used to weed out horses rather than true eventing just isn’t cool. I definitely see the Europeans crying because their big warmbloods just couldn’t hold up for it. They were phenomenal for dressage but just didn’t bounce back for show jumping as they were too tired. Also of the Rolex horses that have died in last several years were warmblood or warmblood cross. Incredibly sad yes I know there have been tb fatalities but the ones that stand out are wb. I think with a lot of tb web could be competitive. I find it funny instead of breeding a horse for the sport, the Europeans change it to where their horses can be competitive. I still remember David o Connors dressage test blowing everyone away in the Olympics. That was when we saw the formats changing. They don’t take not having a superior horse well.[/QUOTE]
Rather more specifically I think it was the Germans and the Dutch who, amongst the Europeans, lobbied very effectively to change the format from long to short, more suitable for the WBs that they were breeding. Both the Irish and the Brits, with TBs and ID x TBs who excelled at the long format, were caught out by the politics, sadly
Don’t believe this is true. Philip and Evie are friends, his barn is “around the block” from us. He has some full TBs that hopefully are on the up and coming list. Philip will look at anything that has potential, it’s the horse in front of you and between your legs not its parents. We only do TBs start most in racing after that pretty much anything that will suite them. I get calls from the “names” in the neighborhood and referrals asking if we have anything to look at, try. Leased a nice one that has already shown potential to a client of Molly Rosin who I don’t know but seems very nice and has a very good facility. Hopefully he will make some “noise” next year.
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