Breeding for a Derby Horse - Stallion Help Needed

[OGF]

Edited to add…
Conformation pic

She’s lost some muscle in her neck already due to being out of work and is certainly at that ugly clipping phase (head already filled in and black, body a mousey color). In my original post I worried about her back but what I really think is that her back is probably fine, I’d just prefer a little more neck. Am I right? I also think something about this photo makes her appear a little heavier boned than she actually is.

Two years ago I thought we were retiring our Hannoverian mare from the show ring due to a soundness issue and that we’d would breed her that spring. Instead we laid her off for a year and brought her back over the next year. It’s been a great year but we are back on a plan to breed her this spring. As I wrote two years ago, this breeding would be a first for us so I have a lot to learn.

In the meantime, my daughter has gotten derby fever. The mare has some great derby qualities so it’s a reasonable plan to aim for a 4’ derby horse/performance hunter division. Our fall back plan, if the baby doesn’t have the temperament but does have the jump, would be the jumper ring. From our mare, we’d like to shorten her back and pasterns. She is fine boned so a little more bone would not be a problem. She’s a little downhill as well. We admittedly love her black color (no idea if she is homozygous black) and keeping that would be a plus. I’m ambivalent on sticking with Hanoverian approved stallions. We are breeding with the plan of keeping the baby but know it might not be the one for us. In her inspection in Germany in 2003 she was Elite eligible but never took the Mare Performance Test. We had hoped she would do the performance test this fall but the inspection near us happened to coincide with a time when she was not sound so we had to nix that plan.

Here are links to 2 videos from November 2011. In one weekend she won a '/3’3" derby out of a field of 50 horses and then the adult medal finals the next day. Prior to injuries, she did the Junior hunters with my daughter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p-U5F-FAu0&list=FLKP8bbBShIBLOfMCT8pFGAA&index=1&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgTGqbrlftA&list=FLKP8bbBShIBLOfMCT8pFGAA&index=2&feature=plpp_video

In her rehab over the last year, she was up to the 3’ by the end of the summer and did well in Saratoga and Lake Placid (reserve champ in adult hunters the second week). I can link to some video from Saratoga if needed.

Suggestions? I still have all of my notes from two years ago and am beginning to go back through all of those stallions that seemed like good matches then but our focus is now more honed on a big jump in good form and there might be better choices out there now.

[SidesaddleRider]

They have proven their success in the hunter derbies, so I would look at the following stallions:
C. Quito
Crown Affair
Cabardino
Empire (if he is available)

Also, look at the horses that are at the top of the derby standings, and see who their sires are (a lot of them were imported from Europe, so you would then be dealing with frozen semen). If you see some consistency, take a look at that stallion and see if he would suit your mare.

[JazCreekInc]

My coming 4 y/o Crown Affair son seems like a great derby prospect. He is beautiful, a great mover, and most importantly, BRAVE! He has hauled to get tried and jumped around completely unknown spooky rings with NO prep… He jumps ANYTHING from ANYWHERE… all in the hands of a great rider. He has not had any bad experiences… but if all keeps tracking in this direction I would venture a guess that he will be a great derby horse one day!

Crown is a bit heavy but not downhill and a very pretty color… When bred to a TB mare we got two beautifully balanced, nicely refined horses.

[knowthatifly]

Two more for your consideration are Palladio (if you want some color at www.crestlinefarm.com) and Romantic Star (Elite Hanoverian at www.grayfoxfarms.com).

[baywithchrome2]

What are you mare’s bloodlines?

[CathyKb]

I would recommend Valentino Z(Darco son and International Jumper). I have a filly by him that is just perfect to me. Will have great jumping and has wonderful hunter movement. Love to just watch her move.

http://www.risingstarfarm.net/horse%20pages/Valentino%20Z.html

Also Figaro B is a up and coming hunter stallion. Beautiful stallion, movement and jump. Will be in Ocala.

http://www.risingstarfarm.net/horse%20pages/FigaroB.html

[selah]

She looks pretty enough to pass for TB:cool:

[Oakstable]

Track down Whirlwind, a Canadian stallion. He is showing in the hunter derbies in the midwest this winter.

[OGF]

BaywithChrome 2 - Our horse’s sire is Salisbury and sire’s sire is Salieri. The dam is St. Pr. Hauptstutbuch Aurora and dam’s sire is Augustinus xx. Other stallions listed on the certificate are Salvano, Pik Bube, Kronzeuge and Derneburg. Here is a link to the breeder’s info page on Salieri. http://www.pferdebuenger.de/index.html

[sfstable]

Take a look at our stallion, Richard, to see if he might be a match for your mare. He competed in both the jumpers and hunters. His first USA foals are three this year and are showing to be athletic and easy to put undersaddle. He has thrown both hunter type and jumper type foals.

www.theequineathlete.com

[RanchoAdobe]

Coronett 2- scope enough for a jumper and style for a hunter

[selah]

[QUOTE=OGF;6033570]
BaywithChrome 2 - Our horse’s sire is Salisbury and sire’s sire is Salieri. The dam is St. Pr. Hauptstutbuch Aurora and dam’s sire is Augustinus xx. Other stallions listed on the certificate are Salvano, Pik Bube, Kronzeuge and Derneburg. Here is a link to the breeder’s info page on Salieri. http://www.pferdebuenger.de/index.html[/QUOTE]

This mare?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=SHEILA101&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

[OGF]

Selah - Yes! This is our mare. When we bought her they had named her Splendid but when we researched her to register her with AHS, we learned that she was actually Sheila.

[RunningwaterWBs]

If your mare is already inspected and has had performance success, she may be Elite Eligible based on her performance. I think it’s worth a call to the AHS office to discuss. In my experience, they’ve been very helpful with such questions.

My first thought if you want jump and want to shorten the back is Goodtimes, of whom I’m a longtime fan, but I don’t know where that would put you in terms of registration, since he’s Dutch. For a hunter sire, I’ve also always liked Foxhunter, but I have no idea about availability.

[baywithchrome2]

Very pretty mare. Love her strong TB influence for the Hunters and when breeding, its something I would personally want to retain. Would you happen to have a conformation picture of her? I ask because her back doesn’t look too long under saddle, but it could be deceiving.

[horsechick]

I know he’s young so therefore an unknown, but I’ll throw Amazing out there. He would give you the physical traits you are after…a shorter back, good bone, and is a fantastic mover and jumper for the hunter ring so would only compliment this already nice mare.

If you want more proven, I do like C Quito who also seems to be on the short coupled side.

She’s lovely-good luck!

[Anne]

So I’m just going to be honest here… one of the stallions mentioned on this thread is available frozen only and has what is in my opinion an extremely restrictive contract. I considered him for my own mare and didn’t look any further once I saw the contract.

Another stallion who has been mentioned belongs to someone who is very unreliable and who has been the subject of numerous threads here already.

Unfortunately these days it seems evaluating a stallion’s conformation and performance is the easy part; finding out “the rest of the story” is the hard part. Good luck choosing a date for your lovely mare!

[selah]

Both Mezcalero and ROC USA have been proven to have gotten competitive jumpers from mares with a TB damline, though again, not Hanoverian.
http://www.octoberhill.com/stallions_details.php?stallion_id=6
http://www.rocusa.net/
I would talk to Edgar about Landkoenig for your mare…or at least get his recommendations.
http://www.rainbowequus.com/Lankoenig.htm

[akrogirl]

[QUOTE=selah;6037322]
Both Mezcalero and ROC USA have been proven to have gotten competitive jumpers from mares with a TB damline, though again, not Hanoverian.
http://www.octoberhill.com/stallions_details.php?stallion_id=6
http://www.rocusa.net/
I would talk to Edgar about Landkoenig for your mare…or at least get his recommendations.
http://www.rainbowequus.com/Lankoenig.htm[/QUOTE]

My Landkoenig mare is pretty long backed, so I’m not sure if he would help in that regard. Cabalito seems to cross well on mares with a lot of TB blood and has a good Derby record himself.

[OGF]

I am definitely learning that, as a first time breeder especially, I have a lot to pay attention to well beyond choosing a stallion that matches well with the goals for our foal. After reading a couple of breeding contracts I realized how different they could be and that they need to be read very carefully to be sure I understand exactly what I would be getting and what I would not. And I’m definitely more clued in to the meaning of “approved”.

I’m still looking but here is my current short list:
Papparazzo
Crown Affair
Escudo II
Cunningham
Cabardino

I know I may be missing some really good choices. I’m a little tentative about trying a young or lesser known stallion - first time breeder, only one mare so not much room for experimentation, hoping for a horse for my daughter with a specific use (derbies and performance hunters). If I’ve included a “frozen only”, I’ll eliminate that choice. Input happily accepted. Remember that my mare has TB blood and does not need to be lightened up. I’m looking for very correct legs (shorten her pasterns particularly), the jump and scope for the derbies, and a calm mind.

I really want her in foal this year. Will breeders give me real statistics on percentage of successful breedings to their stallions? I don’t want to choose one that has had inconsistent success.