Breeding Help Please

[vdowning13]

So I have an interesting situation…a friend has a lovely mare that she said I could breed next year. I know it is a bit early to start searching for a stallion, but I am excited

I think she has a nice old-school pedigree for sport:

http://www.equineonline.com/Free-5x-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=DISPLAY_REPORT&sire_reference_number=1198888&dam_reference_number=939186&color=&sex=&hypo_foaling_year=&breeder=&include_sire_line=Y

I am currently showing one of her sons in the 3’7 jumpers. While he is really special to me, and scopey, has a wonderful temperament, and is a lovely mover, he is just going to be too hard to get fit enough to compete at the level I’d like to compete at (I’d really like to do a 2* on this baby if all goes to plan). If I had to be picky, the gelding I am riding is too heavy/big bodied and his neck comes out of his chest a little low, which I’d like the stallion to improve in my foal, as the mare is just a tad low in the chest as well.

She tends to throw big, wildly colored and chromey babies. I don’t mind hotter horses (I am riding 2 hot OTTBs right now) but I ideally don’t want anything stupid. I would ideally like something that is known for throwing nice movement and some scope, as I don’t want to detract from her movement or scope.

I really like Formula One and Riverman so far, but am open to any and all suggestions. One caveat: she can only be bred with cooled.

Thanks in advance for reading my diatribe and your suggestions

[vineyridge]

The last horse in the world that you want for temperament is Riverman.

[vdowning13]

I know Riverman is not known for a stellar temperament, and I personally don’t mind something hot or naughty (I have a Cahill Road gelding that is borderline feral at times), I just don’t want something really mean or belligerent if that makes sense. However, if I ever for some crazy reason had to sell the foal, temperament would be a big consideration. Thanks for your input.

[vineyridge]

Riverman has produced some lunatics, not just hot, but real lunatics.

[vdowning13]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8937758]
Riverman has produced some lunatics, not just hot, but real lunatics.[/QUOTE]

Okay, that is definitely not something I want to gamble on then. The mare is a bit hot, but very sweet so I’d like to keep that personality. I have only had up-close experience with one Riverman, and he was nice, but was out of a good mare.

Do you have any recommendations for her by chance?

[JER]

[QUOTE=vdowning13;8937648]
I just don’t want something really mean or belligerent if that makes sense. [/QUOTE]

Then you really don’t want Riverman.

When I kept my mares at a big breeding/ET facility, I got to see lots of Riverman foals. They were all attractive (and grey). Some were reasonably well-behaved.

Some were ill-tempered, anti-social and/or just plain nuts. I recall watching a days-old filly foal kicking the crap out of its mum for no reason at all except that she seemed to enjoy it. The farm manager said by way of explanation ‘It’s a Riverman.’

I suspect some of the real crazies don’t make it to the riding stage. I have seen some that are decent enough but I do know of one horse in which having Riverman as a sire was a negative when trying to sell him.

[vdowning13]

[QUOTE=JER;8937776]
Then you really don’t want Riverman.

When I kept my mares at a big breeding/ET facility, I got to see lots of Riverman foals. They were all attractive (and grey). Some were reasonably well-behaved.

Some were ill-tempered, anti-social and/or just plain nuts. I recall watching a days-old filly foal kicking the crap out of its mum for no reason at all except that she seemed to enjoy it. The farm manager said by way of explanation ‘It’s a Riverman.’

I suspect some of the real crazies don’t make it to the riding stage. I have seen some that are decent enough but I do know of one horse in which having Riverman as a sire was a negative when trying to sell him.

:)[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for that insight! Being in Montana, it is really hard to get a first-hand experience with many sires and their babies, which is why I’m trying to get some opinions on here first.

The lady that owns the mare has chosen to breed to two local Irish Draft stallions that would definitely not be my first choice, although both foals have been excellent.

[vineyridge]

If you want a Holsteiner, you might look at Hunter who is in California. He’s a Heraldik son and has produced eventing foals, one of whom has run at Rolex. I personally don’t think the Rolex horse has a true 4* gallop, but for anything less, he’d be fine.

[beowulf]

Well…

That mare has a wonderful pedigree but whatever she produces is likely to be HOT, HOT, HOT.

Where is this friend, so I can take this mare from you? :winkgrin:

All joking aside, neither Riverman or Formula One will improve what you want improved:
Riverman, bless him, is not really an amateur ride. I have worked with several of his kids and the temperament depends strongly on the dam’s. If you have a hot mare to begin with, you will get an uncontrollable foal: if you have a comatose mare, you might get a horse who wants to work with you. Their saving grace is that they are ATHLETIC - if I had to have a Riverman horse, it would be a mare as IMHO they are more compelled to work with you and partner up. In summation, Riverman will not improve temperament. He will improve neck and HQ depending on the mare. He will definitely improve athleticism.

Formula One will put a tough but sensible head on a horse, but you won’t be looking at easy either. That and, IMHO, Formula One will not improve athleticism or stamina of the mare: you need to start with a mare that has both of those traits to get a serious UL horse. So if you are worried about the fitness and stamina aspect of the mare and what she produces, I would not look at Formula One.

Just my personal opinion, being fairly familiar with FO horses as when I was a WS for a certain somebody, he had a string of them: they are just not as athletic for the UL. He has, IIRC, one UL horse and he has ‘covered’ more than his fair share of QUALITY mares… and he has been at stud for a decade. If he was going to light the world on fire, we would have seen it by now.

If I was going to breed that mare (and this is without pictures of the mare, so may be hit or miss), I would consider either:
Future Gravitas (or Grafenstolz)
Persiflage
Mill Law

Now, your mare has a pedigree that I think with intelligent pairing, could produce a very powerful result. I might even consider a full TB with a pedigree like that: Rather Well comes to mind; or a non TB like Tatendrang who would definitely improve the temperament and neck of the mare.

Or you could do RocUSA, which would cement the HTR/Turn To pairing.

I have an old thread that might be of interest to you, it’s about proven event TB stallions:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?426261-proven-event-TB-stallions-and-their-families

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Sent you a PM.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I will say that I bred to Riverman and got a lovely foal that I easily sold. But my mare has an outstanding temperament that she passes. A number of Riverman offspring do very well in hunters. And I know someone who worked at Hilltop and green broke a ton of Riverman offspring. She never found them mean but they often were sensitive, a bit reactive and extremely athletic which made them more professional rides as young horses. They tend to mature a bit later as well. With the right mare, I would not be afraid to use him.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I do love my Persiflage colt this year. I basically got a more refined version of my mare (which was a very good thing). Grafenstolz definitely improved the neck on my one mare. That horse is now a 4 year old and extremely easy temperament. He’s unfortunately tried to kill himself a few times too many and as a result will not be more than a pleasure horse. Sucks as otherwise he looked like a for sure UL prospect. I’ve had unfortunate luck with Future Gravitas (not his fault). Lost a filly by him in a breach delivery. I think I will be trying again with him this year.

Another one to consider is Quite Easy. I’ve really liked the offspring of his that I’ve seen.

Honestly, there are a ton of good choices. Look closely at what this mare has produced. Look closely at what you stallion choices have produced and think hard about what you want in a foal. Then cross your fingers because breeding can be very heartbreaking but also very rewarding.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8938140]
I do love my Persiflage colt this year. I basically got a more refined version of my mare (which was a very good thing). Grafenstolz definitely improved the neck on my one mare. That horse is now a 4 year old and extremely easy temperament. He’s unfortunately tried to kill himself a few times too many and as a result will not be more than a pleasure horse. Sucks as otherwise he looked like a for sure UL prospect. I’ve had unfortunate luck with Future Gravitas (not his fault). Lost a filly by him in a breach delivery. I think I will be trying again with him this year.

Another one to consider is Quite Easy. I’ve really liked the offspring of his that I’ve seen.

Honestly, there are a ton of good choices. Look closely at what this mare has produced. Look closely at what you stallion choices have produced and think hard about what you want in a foal. Then cross your fingers because breeding can be very heartbreaking but also very rewarding.[/QUOTE]
I really like Quite Easy. He isn’t ‘proven’ yet but I do for sure enjoy looking at him… I’ve seen a few really nice ones locally. Doesn’t someone have a nice one coming up the levels? Is it Doug Payne?

Are you considering breeding to him?

Also… care to share pics of your Persiflage?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Yes. I’m using Quite Easy on my TB mare Rockstina for 2017.

I believe Doug does have one going now in the US. He has offspring running Advanced and he is well ranked in WBFSH Standings with a number of eventing offspring.

I don’t have a lot of good pictures of my Persiflage colt (can’t seem to figure out how to post the facebook album) but here are a couple. He was a June baby so very young in most of these pictures. His dam is a well bred WB and large (17.3). She has an extremely good front end and neck–that she passes consistently…so different from what the OP is looking for. I had hoped to hold down her size breeding to Persiflage but “Moose” looks like he will be a tall tall boy. His registered name is “Protego”.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8938208]
Yes. I’m using Quite Easy on my TB mare Rockstina for 2017.

I believe Doug does have one going now in the US. He has offspring running Advanced and he is well ranked in WBFSH Standings with a number of eventing offspring.

I don’t have a lot of good pictures of my Persiflage colt (can’t seem to figure out how to post the facebook album) but here are a couple. He was a June baby so very young in most of these pictures. His dam is a well bred WB and large (17.3). She has a extremely good front end and neck–that she passes consistently…so different from what the OP is looking for. I had hoped to hold down her size breeding to Persiflage but “Moose” looks like he will be a tall tall boy. His registered name is “Protego”.[/QUOTE]

my goodness, he is stunning!

Re:Rockstina, that is the Rock Slide/Hatchet mare? Loved that pedigree when you showed it a while back on the boards. I think that will be an impressive foal.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8938227]
my goodness, he is stunning!

Re:Rockstina, that is the Rock Slide/Hatchet mare? Loved that pedigree when you showed it a while back on the boards. I think that will be an impressive foal.[/QUOTE]

Yes he is…he just got weaned and I swear he is the size of a yearling! I told him to slow down his growing! I have a WB filly out of the same dam and I’m considering crossing her to Persiflage as well…but I wouldn’t count on him to produce small even though he is not a tall stallion if your mare can pass height. Granted…I’ve not had luck downsizing my mare with any of her offspring. Her 2 year old filly is over 16.2…

Yes Rockstina is by Rockslide/Hatchet Man (http://www.pedigreequery.com/rockstina). It should be a good cross. I’d be happy to get a copy of the mare but from what I’ve seen of his offspring and their dams, I think Roxie will cross well with him. But I’m not sure about what he brings in so far as improving the neck as that is not a weak area for my mare so not something that I researched with him.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

OP–With your mare. Besides all the other suggestions, I’d avoid Jaguar Mail just because I think that gets you too many Turn To crosses…although others might say that is a good thing, I’ve avoided it with my mares (I have one with a somewhat similar pedigree).

I’d probably consider Royaldick for her. I haven’t used him yet but he impressed me when I saw him in person and he is on my short list for several.

I’d also consider Grafenstolz and Future Gravitas. I think they both would improve neck set.

If you don’t want to us Frozen but stay fresh cooled, then that gets a bit tougher. Tatendrag is popular and well bred but a big boy. His owner will let you know how he might nick with your mare. RocUSA has produced some good jumpers. I had a lovely foal by Calucci out of a TB mare. Her neck was better than her dams. She was a solid girl but out of a TB I think you definitely would still have something capable of a 2 star. There are a BUNCH of good jumper stallions out there to choose from depending on your type.

ETA: just saw you said cooled only. Is there a reason? I typically pick one frozen and one fresh cooled for my mares. If they do not catch on the frozen I switch to the cooled choice.

[vdowning13]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8937818]
If you want a Holsteiner, you might look at Hunter who is in California. He’s a Heraldik son and has produced eventing foals, one of whom has run at Rolex. I personally don’t think the Rolex horse has a true 4* gallop, but for anything less, he’d be fine.[/QUOTE]

I’ve actually seen the son you are talking about go quite a bit, as he competes in my area about half the time, and he is INCREDIBLY nice, but I agree about the gallop. Hunter would be a nice option due to the fact I can only use cooled.

[Foxtrot_s]

In defence of Riverman: I have a Riverman granddaughter the I bred (Royal Appearance).

You will go a long way to find a nicer horse with a better temperament…a real sweetie, willing, kind, forward, bold. Never pinned an ear or raised a leg at anything. Was born broke and polite. Royal Appearance has sired Royal Raconteur who went Advanced. She has a lot of Riverman’s qualities. Riverman is Hilltop’s flagship stallion and is high on all the scores for dressage, jumpers and venters in the States.

When I took my foal to her inspection the inspector said they were true all rounders.

Jimmy Wofford loved my mare at a clinic (although he tried to hide it, but admitted it later).

Don’t write him off without checking further He had a lot of foals on the ground and maybe not all were in the right hands, etc. RA has a good reputation for his temperament.

[vdowning13]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8938286]
OP–With your mare. Besides all the other suggestions, I’d avoid Jaguar Mail just because I think that gets you too many Turn To crosses…although others might say that is a good thing, I’ve avoided it with my mares (I have one with a somewhat similar pedigree).

I’d probably consider Royaldick for her. I haven’t used him yet but he impressed me when I saw him in person and he is on my short list for several.

I’d also consider Grafenstolz and Future Gravitas. I think they both would improve neck set.

If you don’t want to us Frozen but stay fresh cooled, then that gets a bit tougher. Tatendrag is popular and well bred but a big boy. His owner will let you know how he might nick with your mare. RocUSA has produced some good jumpers. I had a lovely foal by Calucci out of a TB mare. Her neck was better than her dams. She was a solid girl but out of a TB I think you definitely would still have something capable of a 2 star. There are a BUNCH of good jumper stallions out there to choose from depending on your type.

ETA: just saw you said cooled only. Is there a reason? I typically pick one frozen and one fresh cooled for my mares. If they do not catch on the frozen I switch to the cooled choice.[/QUOTE]

I REALLY want to breed with frozen because most of the stallions I like only offer frozen, but the last time we tried to breed her with frozen, she would not settle down enough to take. It may be worth it for me to try though.