Breeding the mare for an "in foal" sale-what stallion woud you choose?

[TSHEventing]

I have a registered TB mare (JC) who has pretty decent bloodlines for sport http://www.pedigreequery.com/outoftheclub that has decided she does not want to be ridden any more. She has quite a history of baggage and just can’t deal with it (baggage meaning abuse, and a really rough life before I got her). She is 7 with plenty of life ahead of her and is gorgeous, a fabulous scopey jumper and amazing suspension and athletisism in the dressage when you can get her out of her own head.

Here is a photo https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10100872403079144&set=a.693837631774.2301278.11312544&type=3&theater

I’ve dealt with the vet issues, the saddle issues, even the psychological issues and nothing is working, so instead of trying to make her something she just isn’t happy with I thought I could give her a better job.

Now, I’d like to rehome her but as is she really isn’t saleable so I’m thinking the best way to do that is to breed her and sell her already in foal.

Her predisposition is in eventing or jumpers (or dressage), but probably isnt a hunter mover. Conformationally, she is a little base narrow in front and slightly upright and could use a better shoulder angle… you can see the rest.

If you thought about doing that, what stallion would you breed to for marketability?

[Molly_Malone]

A Trakehner! If she could be inspected and approved, her foals would be eligible for B papers. There are some interesting new stallions available in NA - such as Songline, Hope of Heaven and Halimey Go - or older proven ones such as Heling GS, Windfall, Tzigane, Abdullah and Special Memories - or ones in the public eye, such as Patras Vom Rappenhof, Tatendrang, Virginian Sky and Halimey Go (again)

One of Denny’s stallions would be marketable - or even go full TB and breed to A Fine Romance, Salute the Truth, Sea Accounts or Sea Lion - all very marketable.

[Molly_Malone]

A Trakehner! If she could be inspected and approved, her foals would be eligible for B papers. There are some interesting new stallions available in NA - such as Songline, Hope of Heaven and Halimey Go - or older proven ones such as Heling GS, Windfall, Tzigane, Abdullah and Special Memories - or ones in the public eye, such as Patras Vom Rappenhof, Tatendrang, Virginian Sky and Halimey Go (again)

One of Denny’s stallions would be marketable - or even go full TB and breed to A Fine Romance, Salute the Truth, Sea Accounts or Sea Lion - all very marketable.

She a good looking mare, and the sort I’ll be looking for next year.

[clint]

She is a beautiful mare. I would present her to a studbook for placement, assuming she is sound. My first choice would be GOV; that would give you a good selection of approved stallions. Then I would breed her to a stallion in a major studbook that has a super temperament, with a focus on dressage or jumping. It is probably less complicated to breed with fresh semen, so a stallion based in North America would be easiest.

[Action42]

Would it be possible to offer out on a breeding lease? That way the Leaser could decide on the stallion and take on the breeding costs. Just a thought.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I’m with Action. I, for example, already have a stud fee paid to a warmblood stallion who is not a cross I want to do on my current mare, but he has crossed very well on TB’s, and I will be looking for a mare to lease. Studbook approval on the mare would be a huge bonus.

[netg]

I would definitely look at approvals you think she can get, and go for them. To me a mare who doesn’t have approvals comes across as one who can’t get approvals, even if she could.

I’m a big proponent of breeding TB types to Oskar pG. When I was looking at youngsters I consistently found I loved his babies, but I wanted a lighter and hopefully shorter type - and the babies I found for sale were typically from LARGE broodmares.
http://www.aquafarms.net/Oskar.html

My Oskar filly is out of a 3/4 TB Trakehner mare (owned by acottongim on these boards) and she was exactly what I was looking for - with few like her for sale out there. Oskar has quite a following now, but wasn’t bred much when younger, and probably won’t have many more babies. He is bred to jump and did GP dressage, so very athletic with athletic babies who consistently have hind leg use I just love.

Some photos from my trip out to buy her when she was 2 1/2 and definitely in a downhill phase, but still moving well:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/546674_863905653986_1860762054_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/376315_861462844396_995168699_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/431565_861462185716_1997564541_n.jpg

And a couple months ago, standing a little funny, but…
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/69856_950472328676_727028858_n.jpg

[anglotrak]

Be very careful as you could end up with a foal with the same issues as the mare. How is she as far as ground manners? She will pass a lot of that disposition on to the foal as much of their early learning has the mare as the teacher. Whatever stallion you pick, there is no guarantee that someone will want the foal enough to take on the mare. Are you prepared to raise the foal and keep the mare if she doesn’t sell? She is absolutely gorgeous and I think the Trakehner would be the way to go if you decide to proceed with the breeding. There are several stallions known for producing riding athletes with lovely temperments that might work with her. The ATA is always looking for GOOD thoroughbreds. Letting someone do a breeding lease might be the better way to go with her.

[HorseKrazy]

^^^^those would be my concerns as well. How much of her ‘temperament’ is inherent in her genetics and how much was introduced through thoughtless or abusive handling? If she were my mare, and I truly loved her movement and scope and she has excellent ground manners, then I would breed her to a stallion known for passing on a quiet and pliable temperament first and foremost-and keep the baby! Then you could move her along, unless you are uninterested in breeding for yourself.

Fwiw I think she has presence and is very feminine! Love her!

[TSHEventing]

In terms of ground manners, you can really see her past exhibited in her behavior now. There is a longer story than I’m going to tell, but abbreviated the mare was bought on fire sale from a farm that foreclosed. Purchaser bought her as a three year old as a hunter prospect.

Purchaser had many personal issues and mare ended up in really bad care (with a giant scar where she almost lost her leg i.e., life) and then purchaser found her tied to her front gate on a busy highway as a 6 year old.

Purchaser said as a three year old she was quiet, obedient and loving. Now she wants to be quiet and obedient, then you can see her “switch” to her other personality where she thinks everyone is out to kill her and takes every little movement like you are going to beat the living hell out of her.

It is really very sad. I can deal with the handing issues, but she doesn’t want to play under saddle.

She is brave brave brave
This was her first horse show and first class arond a set of jumps (and we didn’t school ahead of time) … jumped the liverpool as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r9-aIt1Da0

But you can see the tail doesn’t stop, same on the flat… yes, again before you start saying “check this check” that she has had everything checked, internal and external (ulcers, tumors, joints, saddle fit, teeth, hormone levels, have put her on rinitidine to relax her, put her on regumate to regulate her but this behavior is out of season, etc. etc. etc. spent a fortune trying to do right by her)… she isn’t happy in her own skin under saddle.

I do not want to breed. Could I deal with a foal? Yes. If I couldn’t sell her likely I would keep the foal and give her away (or donate her to a university) but I think she really has value as a sport horse broodmare.

Unfortunately, I am in graduate school so I don’t have unlimited resources and am trying to find the best situation for her while not completely leaving me without a horse or without the ability to get a horse (so breeding lease is out unless everything else fails)… so I’ve thought about offering a trade for something rideable to someone that might be interested in a broodmare… she is chestnut with four whites so maybe some color breeders would be interested? I don’t know… just running through ideas.

Thanks for the ideas so far! Thinking of inspecting Trak, that inspection is in the fall for me.

[okggo]

I see a lot of people do this, but I personally wouldn’t. Reason being, you would be hoping for a buyer that really wants the mare AND foal, and that’s going to be far less likely then someone wanting the mare or foal. Meaning the one they aren’t too keen on gets sold off. In this type of situation the reality is it will probably be the foal that gets kept and then someone ends up giving away the mare or worse. TBs are easy to come by, and ones with “issues” are certainly harder to find good homes for.

If I were you I would be trying very hard to market the mare and find someone that really wants HER, to help try to assure a home for her. Getting WB approvals and providing a breeding health/soundness exam would be a bonus for a breeder looking to add a nice TB mare to their band.

The other thing with breeding her, if she doesn’t sell in foal, then you have two to sell, and not just one.

[Bacardi1]

[QUOTE=okggo;6976591]
I see a lot of people do this, but I personally wouldn’t. Reason being, you would be hoping for a buyer that really wants the mare AND foal, and that’s going to be far less likely then someone wanting the mare or foal. Meaning the one they aren’t too keen on gets sold off. In this type of situation the reality is it will probably be the foal that gets kept and then someone ends up giving away the mare or worse. TBs are easy to come by, and ones with “issues” are certainly harder to find good homes for.

If I were you I would be trying very hard to market the mare and find someone that really wants HER, to help try to assure a home for her. Getting WB approvals and providing a breeding health/soundness exam would be a bonus for a breeder looking to add a nice TB mare to their band.

The other thing with breeding her, if she doesn’t sell in foal, then you have two to sell, and not just one.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%. Selling her in foal isn’t going to solve any of the mare’s problems. And if they’re as unpredictable & difficult to deal with as you state, chances are good that a buyer will end up keeping the foal & getting rid of the mare asap. Granted, this will solve your problem, but is this really the way you want to solve it?

[netg]

I was answering the OP regarding who I’d breed to - but do agree that it sounds like in this case not breeding may be a better option.

Also, OP I sent you a PM.

[TSHEventing]

well, not to put too fine a point on it, but as a riding horse she is unusable. So she is either going to be donated to the University (who wont guarentee anything in terms of alive v. dead) or sold as a broodmare… so, options? please? As much as we’d all love to live in a world where we can collect useless animals as pasture pets, I do not live there. I “saved” her from being tied to a gate on a busy road. I’ve really tried to do my part, dumped mucho money in to her to try to fix the issue, and turns out that as a riding horse it isn’t going to work out. So, plan b.

[JumperFyre]

I second Windfall. Or Arko III would add some bone to a foal.

[Home_Again_Farm]

Kudos to you for rescuing her and trying to rehabilitate her brain. I would try very hard to place her with someone who might appreciate her. She may never make a horse that can be taken into a show ring, but someone out there might appreciate her and ride her. I would not breed her, because I do not think that her being bred will make her more desirable. Instead, that option carries the strong potential to put you further in the red and to end up with 2 horses that you do not want, rather than just one.

I have hesitated to reply, as I don’t want to come across as negative, but I do not see anything to recommend this mare for breeding. Her still photo makes her look very good, but on the video her movement and her willingness to work seem average or less than average. Just because a mare can’t be ridden, does not mean that she should be bred. In fact, usually the opposite is the case. I wish I could be more positive. This is a hard situation without an easy answer.

[Laurierace]

I personally see nothing there that makes me think she has any value as a broodmare. Question number one is always “would you be happy with a carbon copy of the mare?” Obviously you would not. If you don’t think anyone wants one of her you don’t double your problems. Nothing wrong with donating to a University even if it is a terminal study.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=TSHEventing;6976616]
well, not to put too fine a point on it, but as a riding horse she is unusable. So she is either going to be donated to the University (who wont guarentee anything in terms of alive v. dead) or sold as a broodmare… so, options? please? As much as we’d all love to live in a world where we can collect useless animals as pasture pets, I do not live there. I “saved” her from being tied to a gate on a busy road. I’ve really tried to do my part, dumped mucho money in to her to try to fix the issue, and turns out that as a riding horse it isn’t going to work out. So, plan b.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think donating her to a university and having her die there is justification enough to breed her if you or the market doesn’t want another generation like her.

I’d advertise the heck out of her now. Get her inspected if you can. If you do decide to breed her, choose a stallion that will make a baby you’d like to own… in case that’s the way it works out.

FWIW, I was in your situation while I was in grad school. It took 3 years, some inspections and leasing her to two different people who wanted to breed one for themselves to sell that mare.

[TSHEventing]

Home again and Laurie- Thank you for your opinions, but I have several really well-respected breeders who have seen the mare (in person) that disagree with you. In addition I have a grand prix dressage trainer who highly regards her and an advanced eventer who thinks she is a very nice mare… when she is lucid!

Obviously her “willingness to work” is the issue here, I’m questioning why you brought that up?

However, she has a fabulous canter and a spectacular jump, when she is focused on the job and not on me.

Just so you don’t think I’m crazy, here is a link to her first XC school … first time off my property, first time in a field with other horses around. This is her lucid. Remember, she is green as grass and had been over fences for maybe 3 weeks at this point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUN87CBvfJ4

However, I agree. I think marketing her as a broodmare prospect is the way to go. I already have three inquries.

Someone else PM’d me and compared her behavior to PTSD which is a great way to think about it!

[Bacardi1]

[QUOTE=TSHEventing;6976811]
Home again and Laurie- Thank you for your opinions, but I have several really well-respected breeders who have seen the mare (in person) that disagree with you. In addition I have a grand prix dressage trainer who highly regards her and an advanced eventer who thinks she is a very nice mare… when she is lucid!

Obviously her “willingness to work” is the issue here, I’m questioning why you brought that up?

However, she has a fabulous canter and a spectacular jump, when she is focused on the job and not on me.

However, I agree. I think marketing her as a broodmare prospect is the way to go. I already have three inquries.[/QUOTE]

Okay, so let those “several really well-respected breeders. . . grand priz dressage trainers. . . . advanced eventers” make an offer for her. Wait a minute - you mean they’re not? How very strange. . . . .

Good luck. But as others have stated, I’d be VERY leery of breeding & possibly perpetrating bad traits simply to get rid of a mare.