Breeding this mare- Worth trying to breed again?

[arary]

So guys, I’m going to ask your opinion and see if anyone has suggestions for me. You see, I have this lovely Thoroughbred mare who I just adore. She’s quite beautiful and athletic, everything that you could possibly want in a TB. When she was fit, people often mistook her for a WB and were shocked to find out she was full TB because of her big floaty gaits. She evented through training level and trained in dressage to 3rd level. She has the most lovely temperament. She’s sensitive and forward, but sensible with a great work ethic. Every trainer who has worked with her loves her, and I just adore her.

Two years ago she suffered a pasture injury after I moved her to a new barn, and she’s never fully recovered. Because I love her so much, I decided to breed her to Rubignon in 2015. My mare was 14 at the time. I sent her to a breeding facility run by a veterinarian, and we bred her 3 times. The vet said that the timing was ideal, sperm quality was good, but for unknown reasons she failed to conceive. She did retain some fluid but the vet was diligent in flushing and he said that should take care of the problem.

I kind of gave up afterwards, but recently a knowledgeable friend told me that older mares often retain fluid because they are allergic to the extenders in the semen. She suggested I breed her live cover or send her to the stallion’s farm where they could collect the stallion and inseminate her immediately without extenders or cooling the semen. I’m in Virginia, so obviously that rules out Rubignon.

So 3 questions:

1. Does it sound like a reasonable idea? My mare is now 16. The $ I spent on the stud fee was wasted, and all the vet fees. I would only try again if I could do it on the cheap, without all the shipping and vet fees. Stallion does not need to be international quality, just 3 good gaits and a willing temperament. I don’t really need the stallion to add anything to the cross as my mare is already the perfect lower level dressage horse. My only criteria is an amateur friendly temperament. Also not gigantic in size would be a plus.

2. Where could I find a stallion in Virginia that breeds live cover or “on the spot” like that? Not picky about breed, just anything warmblood.

3. Can I do anything with the Rubignon breeding I paid for? Live foal guarantee and I have 1 year left on the 3 year breeding contract. People have suggested I lease a mare to breed but that’s totally not the point. I don’t particularly want a foal. I want a foal from MY mare.

Thanks everyone for suggestions!

[ThirdCharm]

I would contact Rubignon’s management and see if their vet could use a different extender. I have heard of that solving the problem. Failing that, they might allow you to transfer the contract to another individual so you could sell it and recoup some of your money.

Jennifer

[ThirdCharm]

Of course you would still have shipping and vet costs but still might be cheaper than another stud fee on a possibly less-ideal stallion.

Jennifer

[JJ_sLuckyTrain]

I think you should be able to find a farm in the region that could collect and inseminate with fresh semen. I am sure others will chime in with suggestions for WBs. Not many folks handle stallions for live cover anymore other than at TB farms.

I would give her another chance.

[goodpony]

Talk to your vet about Biofilms and their treatment.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Look at some of the stallions standing at HyperionStudLLC, and give them a call. Jumpers… Not dressage, but some great options. I had an older maiden I was/still am interested in trying to breed to one of the stallions they manage. They were very nice when discussing if it would be possible to trailer in, and inseminate with fresh.

[Laurierace]

There is nothing with horses that you can do on the cheap, least of all breeding. Just way, way too many things can go wrong that can cost a fortune at pretty much every step of the way.

[keysfins]

There’s also the possibility of embryo transfer, if you wanted to go in that direction and it is ok with the S/O according to your contract. That presumes you can get a successful breeding and can flush/retrieve/implant the embryo successfully.

Has the mare had any foals when she was younger? My understanding is that older mares who foaled earlier in life are easier to get in foal than an older mare who has not had a previous foal.

Has your Repro vet done a complete Repro exam, with culture/sensitivity and a uterine cytology and/or biopsy samples to evaluate the mare’s Repro condition?

PLEASE do not just pick a random stallion. The sire contributes 50% of the genes of the foal, and should be carefully considered for conformation, performance, and what he produces with your type of mare, among other things. If you are not willing to spend time and effort, including vet exam and breeding fees, then this might not be the best choice for you to try to “reproduce” your mare.

My only other comment is that there is absolutely no guarantee that you will have a foal that is just like your mare. You are not just breeding her, you also must factor in her genetic background (each generation back). Does she have any full siblings? Does she have any half-sibs by sire or dam? How did they turn out? You just never know when you “roll the genetic dice” if there is a throwback or odd combo that could give you a totally unexpected result.

Your individual mare is wonderful for reasons other than genetics, as well. How she was raised, her life experiences, good training, good nutrition and vet care, and so on, all worked together to make her wonderful.

I would also encourage you to find and talk with a mentor who is a breeder. There are SO many ways the breeding endeavor can go wrong, and that includes the real possibility of losing both the mare and the foal. If you are not prepared for that as a risk, you should not breed. Only a breeder/mentor can teach you everything you will need to know, ideally before you even take a first step.

Cheers, and best of luck!

[Katona]

[QUOTE=goodpony;8994508]
Talk to your vet about Biofilms and their treatment.[/QUOTE]

This.

Also, was a cytology and culture done prior to breeding? If perfect, did the vet discuss a biopsy?

I assume her reproductive anatomy was declared to be fine, but I wonder about any maiden TB at that age. Most of them have some shelving, and quite a few windsuck. A castlisk is an option.

When I was first thinking about breeding my TB, I found this article helpful.

Good luck!

[keysfins]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8994531]
There is nothing with horses that you can do on the cheap, least of all breeding. Just way, way too many things can go wrong that can cost a fortune at pretty much every step of the way.[/QUOTE]

This, times a thousand!

[arary]

Couple things to clarify…

Just to clarify:

Culture was negative but no biopsy was done, vet did not find any abnormalities with the mare and said her breeding conformation is good.

I’m obviously not looking for any random stallion, just don’t necessarily need to produce a Grand Prix horse. All I’m saying is that a nice local stallion who competed to PSG and passes on correct conformation and an amateur-friendly temperament would be fine with me. No major conformation flaws to overcome

[arary]

Or maybe would try my luck with a young, unproven stallion who seems promising based on conformation, temperament, and pedigree whose owner might be willing to give me a good deal on price.

[Didi]

Interesting idea, arary. I know that my vet is very dubious about an older maiden mare being able to get in foal and keep it. That may be your best bet if you are trying to not “waste” money. However, the stud fee and insemination fees are probably the cheapest things about breeding, so make sure you are really ready for all of this! Keep us posted

[Beentheredonethat]

I got my GP mare out of a horse like yours. I borrowed her. I have barely bred anything compared to others here (four total) but I’ll give you my input. I love, love, love making babies. It’s really great. I would buy a young horse. You could spend a fortune.

I bought my last mare at 8 having had three babies. I bred her two more times and everything went perfectly, and I have two fabulous mares. I decided one more time at 16–just like you, everything was clean, great semen, ideal situation, fluid, but it was cleared out. I did it twice, and nothing. It cost a lot of money.

There are too many things you don’t know. If you really want a good horse, it’s really a lot cheaper to buy one.

[Jumper_Bump]

I would say give it one more season.

Pick a stallion that is available fresh chilled with good conception rates/motility. As some people have already mentioned mares can have issues with the extenders used in frozen.

Sounds like you have already done a culture and swab and it was clear?

I have a 14 year old maiden mare that we bred 4 times this year, twice frozen and twice fresh chilled. Turns out she had a uterine infection that wasn’t evident at first. After digging deeper into her history apparently a number of people had tried to breed her in past seasons without success.

She is now holding at just past the 4 month mark (still keeping fingers and toes crossed).

Sometimes it takes a while, and some experimentation to find their “formula.”

As you are doing this out of love for the mare and not to necessarily make money off the offspring or to sell the foal at all I would definitely say keep trying as long as you can do it without financial straining yourself too much.

As a side note, don’t rule out Canadian Stallions, a lot will ship to the US.

Best of luck!

[cherham]

I was in exactly the same position this past breeding season. Older mare (16) but had produced a foal the previous year with no complications. Bred twice (different stallion last season) semen quality excellent. Mare caught both times but small conceptus and lost at 21 day heart beat check. My very experienced repro Vet also suggested some type of reaction to the semen extender. Mare cultured both times and found to be in perfect breeding condition. This year we are going to breed live cover. Fingers crossed this works!

[Snowflake]

This happened to me and it was an expensive venture. I did take her live cover, she caught on the first try and then lost the foal late term to placentitis. No more breeding for me.

[Anne]

Get a biopsy and a current culture before you worry about picking a stallion.

[0Chimera0]

Had a vet that I sent 2 mares to my first season breeding… after four tries, he only got one pregnant. Why? His intern slipped up and let it known he was only checking the mares 1x - occasionally 2x a day for frozen breedings. And then inseminating them anyways. This was a well known, well-loved local vet that was known for repro work.

Just my two cents - take the vet into account when considering poor fertility issues.

[csaper58]

OP, I was told maiden mares over 15 have a higher risk of complications.

Give due consideration to the fact that you could loose your mare as you decide whether or not to breed her.

If you do breed her… make sure she gets all necessary nutrients, copper especially.

Have you considered breeding to a Welsh Cob or Pony stallion?

Or a Morgan?