Breeding to large and tempermental Weltmyer Mares

[Cybele]

I’m new to this forum (have been reading posts but never posted! so if some of these questions have been asked before please forgive me! It’s a bit long but I think they are valid questions/observations that some of you may have had/are encountering with your breedings.

I have been breeding for awhile and know my horse flesh very well but not in huge numbers so any help from fellow experienced breeders is welcomed! I have a most amazing 18yr old Elite Hanoverian dressage mare out of Weltregent H (Weltmyer x SPS Donna Bella) x SPS Ricarda (Ramiro and a Seefischer mare).
She competed up to 3rd level/trained to PSG and has produced 4 foals, 3 of which were premium (2 HV/1GOV).
Good length of patterns, nice uphill shoulders, medium length of back, normal to slightly long neck but very good attachment, could have a slightly more refined head/throatlatch but that’s about it! I’m just looking for a bit of refinement because otherwise she is next to perfection in my eyes.

She was previously bred to Royal Prince, Donarweiss, Sir Gregory and Dannebrog.
The Lauries Crusador xx line has worked great at refining and I love the Donnerhall line but I would really like to bring back the Weltmyer line in. The only issues that I have are:

1. She is one hot cookie! Weltmyer offspring are known to be hot, hot, hot! She was so difficult to ride as a youngster but I find that she has really mellowed out once she had her foals (anyone else have this experience?) I am looking for my next high performance horse so I do want some pep but I need a stallion with good rideability. She was never meant to be an AA horse but that’s what I wanted, just not so ahem, crazy?lol (she is a sweetheart and an excellent mother, just so powerful and full of herself but I kind of like that in a weird way?)

2. She is a big girl! She stands at nearly 17hh and is quite well built hence why I kept picking smaller stallions and ones with TB lines. Studs standing at 17hh+ are just unfortunately out.

3. She has absolutly HUGE movement with insane push power from behind but she could use a stallion with good self-carriage/ collection (especially at the canter. It is nice but could use more ‘sit’). Her walk isn’t bad and Weltmyers are known to not have the greatest walk? Not sure why…Her trot is stellar.

4. She has produced all colts! I know that breeding is like playing the lottery but apparently some stallions tend to throw more females vs males. Is this true? I would so love to get a filly so that I can continue her lineage.

So far I have Fürstenball (we all know he is fabulous but apparently he has lax fetlocks, not sure if this is true and his breeding fee is outrageous), Finest (nice guy and a bit more affordable but not sure if he is right), Fürstenlook (seems to have what I am looking for pedigree wise and good temperament) and Spörcken (Lauries Crusador xx, Weltmyer and the Donnerhall pedigree, apparently has great rideability and decent stud fee but don’t know much about him) on my shortlist.

I have spoken to a few friends and gotten their feedback but thought I would ask on this forum and see what kind of insight you all had! She is my baby and it will likely be one of her last breedings. All previous foals were sold pre-breeding but this one I would like to keep for myself so I really want to make sure I get this right.
Thanks

[DownYonder]

A couple of thoughts:
1 - Do you know what your mare’s WFFS status is? Some of the stallions on your list are carriers (N/WFFS), so you definitely want to stay away from them if your mare is also a carrier.
2 - You said 17h stallions are out, but some (all?) of the ones on your list are very, very close to 17h.
3 - Linebreeding to Weltmeyer has generally not been advocated by knowledgeable breeders or registry officials in Germany as it does not typically enhance refinement or rideability. (OTOH, the international Grand Prix stallion Dante Weltino has Weltmeyer twice in the third generation.)
4 - If you are using a very knowledgeable semen broker, you might want to ask her for recommendations.

Good luck with your mare! A friend had a direct Weltmeyer daughter and we had a blast with her. I don’t think she ever got past third level but she was a pretty solid citizen at the lower levels.

[weixiao]

I don’t know anything much about dressage breeding, so not necessarily a helpful suggestion, but I was looking at the Hilltop stallion roster earlier and saw George Clooney who is by De Niro and out of a Wolkentanz mare, which would give you Donnerhall and, a bit further back, Weltmeyer. He is also WFFS N/N I believe. No idea if he suits the type you want though and his first foal crop is still very young so might not be proven enough for you but thought I’d throw him out there since I’d seen him!

[clint]

Have you looked at Liberty Gold? He is Londonderry x Weltmeyer, and although he hasn’t done a ton of breeding in the US, he certainly dispatched his performance test well. He would bring in Lauries Crusader, which you like, and Weltmeyer in his damline.

[Edre]

One of the most well known stallions I can think of that would introduce W is, as mentioned above, Dante Weltino. I only bring him up for the W (and his tremendous hind end). Other than that, he’s opposite of your wants: he’s a heavier build and is often used on mares of a more modern build as a result. I have seen heavier, older styles bred to him and the resultant offspring aren’t necessarily lumbering tanks, but there was certainly no refining done. He’s also tall, and can pass that height on. All that said though, his sire Danone I’s damsire is Weltmeyer, and his dam’s sire is Welt Hit II (another Weltmeyer son), so you could get your W that way.

There are two Danone’s - I and II. I (Dante Weltino’s sire) is known for passing on height and a heavier build, so not necessarily what you would be looking for. Danone II may be more what you are looking for as he is lighter in build and I think, three? inches shorter (and not known for adding height). As noted above, you can get Weltmeyer through damsire Welt Hit there, and the D line is habitually an overperformer with the ability to sit and take weight behind, really just adding power to a ride there (brought to the table through Danone I/II’s sire, De Niro - a paragon in his own right, to be fair, not just on Donnerhall’s laurels).

If you are willing to entertain younger stallions, Romeo is a possibility - he is a Romanov son out of a Wolkentanz I/Wanderbursch II mare. He is a FFS carrier though, so do not use if your mare is also. Romeo brings the characteristic R to the table (super temperament, beautiful head and neck, very correct hind end). I find him pretty characteristic of the Romanov offspring - not necessarily super tall, but longer in leg and very elegant. His oldest offspring are not under saddle yet, though there is a facebook group where you can see them of all ages. They seem uniformly pretty leggy, and he does refine on a heavier mare. The walks look very nice, though I’m not willing to judge canter on them yet as it’s all just at liberty and I’m not hedging bets one way or the other. The movement does all seem very correct with excellent balance. While sire Romanov is pretty well known, his dam (Wolke JM) is remarkable in her own right. She is a SPS, and the oldest of her foals is also SPS - she has another elite mare in her cadre of offspring, plus an approved stallion (Romeo). Again though, as he is such a young stallion definitely more of an unknown entity.

[ASB_Stars]

I rode a Weltmeyer son, many years ago, who had been approved as a stallion, and was gelded later. He was 7 when I had him, and he was everything you have described in your mare. And he was a tough nut. I remember watching a professional in this area ride him one day, in the indoor. He backed out of the bridle, and started leaping though the air- getting Air Jordan worthy lift, thrust, and air time. She ran him into a wall to stop him. It was ugly.

So, I get the incredible athleticism, and all of the rest, but if your mare is already a gifted and a challenge, I would not want to be line breeding that into my personal competition horse. It wouldn’t be worth that roll of the dice, to me.

[NotGrandPrixYet]

To each his own, but IMO we don’t serve the horse well when we breed it hot. There is never a guarantee that the horse will be gifted, and then where and with whom does it end up if it’s hot and average?

[Edre]

Honestly, I wish hot weren’t so much of a dirty word. It may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but that doesn’t mean it’s no one’s cup of tea (and a horse being hot isn’t a death knell, especially when it is thoughtfully bred, well bred, well started, and if for sale, honestly advertised). Weltmeyer is kind of like the red headed mare thing - some people absolutely won’t touch one by him with a ten foot stick. Others flock to them (and will aggressively fight over them, via pricing offers) because of how much they love them.

As the OP is - sensibly - looking to offset some of the known characteristics of the W line (which can be the brain and, in my experience, sometimes elasticity over the topline can be lacking), I don’t see where this is an issue. They’ve clearly made some excellent stallion choices for this mare before (Royal Prince, for example, notorious for his elasticity, good mind, and good nature) and clearly is in touch with a market for this mare’s foals.

Related to the stallions you’ve mentioned, OP, I have seen a few Finest offspring in person. The ones that I really remember: He refined on large bodied (and large boned) mares. He doesn’t seem to add height and in at least a few, has shortened a very tall mare. I think at least one will ultimately end up being as tall as the dam (too young to be at mature height to be sure though). I love the brain - a little sensitive, but infinitely sensible and kind.

[aahunterjumper]

I’m not too up on youngish Dressage stallions, but while looking at the catalog for the 1/25/20 Hannoverian auction catalog, found two dressage horses I love, both are by Finest. No insight into the type of ride they are, but lovely looking and moving! In his stallion test, Finest had a 9 and change for dressage AND rideability.

IMHO, I’d pick a dressage stallion who imparts “good citizen disposition” over fire and flash. I like the Wake Up stallion that Emily Wagner in Kansas has - homebred, with good temper and she competed him in Germany in young horse classes.

You might also inquire with the folks in Verden and Celle, they’ll tell you what they see and what’s likely to be produced.

Because of her age, are you breeding her to carry the foal, or have a recipient mare carry the foal?

[4horses]

If your mare is hot and can be difficult, i would look for the opposite traits, calm quiet, and perhaps not overly sensitive to the aids. Ideally you want something easier to handle with some go to them. I think breeding hot to hot, is just going to give you a horse with a difficult temperament. What you want is athletic ability without the CRAZY that goes with it.

I used to ride a black warmblood many years ago. He was one of the smartest horses i have met. We were working on lead changes and you could just see the light bulb go off as he realized what we were doing. He was smart! And not overly hot, but he was athletic. His half brother was showing in Wellington last i heard. Unfortunately he broke his hock. I don’t recall his bloodlines unfortunately.

[beowulf]

Why not repeat the breeding to Sir Gregory or Royal Prince? I imagine both of those stallions, produced similar to identical to what you mention you were looking for…? I’d especially love to hear how the Sir Gregory foal came out…

Do you have a video, conformation pics?

I would not breed to Furstenball. I would buy a Furstenball on the ground and in work. While I’ve liked many foals of his, and he is clearly successful breeding-wise, I am really wary of breeding to any horse who shows even a single symptom of DSLD/ESPA. He has several offspring with DSLD, and some have been more public than others about it… Whether it comes from him or something else, I don’t know - but breeding is heartbreaking enough I would not risk it myself. Do your research, before breeding.

I also do not believe Furstenball is a stallion that improves rideability in an already hot mare. The foals I’ve handled of his have been quite sharp.

I do really like offspring by Finest. Earlier this year when they put the Hanoverian Verband inspection free-jumping videos on Youtube, seemingly every other horse I liked was by Finest.

I would not be doubling Weltmeyer, either - for the reasons mentioned. It is understood it is a risky combination - when it works, it is great, but it does not often work. The other reason you don’t want to double it: you mentioned you want to refine. That is not something a double dose of Weltmeyer would do.

You would be better going with proven lines to complement the Weltmeyer - it’s common to pair him with a strong D line, or R-line if he comes in too hot in the mare.

[Nevada10]

What about Eskardo? Escudo I x Lauries Crusader

[Jmarcan]

You might seriously consider Total Hope if you are willing to take risks on frozen and line breeding for what could potentially be a big reward…might also want to look at Ridley and Topper Harley to reduce size. All three outside of the Verband currently although Total Hope just won at Nuremberg and may make it in on his performance in sport.

[joiedevie99]

I love the Weltmeyer/Londonderry crosses! I also know several people who have used Rotspon or sons to add rideability to overly-enthusiastic athletic types - although I don’t know any that were Weltmeyer mares.

[Cybele]

@Edre

Honestly, I wish hot weren’t so much of a dirty word. It may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but that doesn’t mean it’s no one’s cup of tea (and a horse being hot isn’t a death knell, especially when it is thoughtfully bred, well bred, well started, and if for sale, honestly advertised). Weltmeyer is kind of like the red headed mare thing - some people absolutely won’t touch one by him with a ten foot stick. Others flock to them (and will aggressively fight over them, via pricing offers) because of how much they love them.

As the OP is - sensibly - looking to offset some of the known characteristics of the W line (which can be the brain and, in my experience, sometimes elasticity over the topline can be lacking), I don’t see where this is an issue. They’ve clearly made some excellent stallion choices for this mare before (Royal Prince, for example, notorious for his elasticity, good mind, and good nature) and clearly is in touch with a market for this mare’s foals.

Related to the stallions you’ve mentioned, OP, I have seen a few Finest offspring in person. The ones that I really remember: He refined on large bodied (and large boned) mares. He doesn’t seem to add height and in at least a few, has shortened a very tall mare. I think at least one will ultimately end up being as tall as the dam (too young to be at mature height to be sure though). I love the brain - a little sensitive, but infinitely sensible and kind.

[Cybele]

Thank you very much for your great and thoughtful response! Hot shouldn’t be a dirty word like you mentioned. Like I’ve said, I am not looking for a super laid back AA horse, I am looking for my next high level/high performance horse that does require a certain amount of ‘fire’ shall we say. I just want to breed responsibly and choose a sire that is known to be level headed as mine was just particularly hot. She did also take a long time to mature physically and mentally. I think too many breeders leave out temperament as a factor. I also believe that I may be better equiped to handle it now u/s as I am older and more knowledgeable too but she was unusually difficult to handle in her youth.

I think that I have chosen well so far as all of her foals have turned out great and have all been refined. It is strange to see how they have all turned out very differently. The Royal Prince turned out just like mama both temperament and athleticism wise so my former coach kept him since she wanted a high performance horse. The Donarweiss colt was the exact opposite and was sold as an AA.
You are right about the Finest offspring. Windsong’s former breeder that I know personally has bred to him a few times and they seem like lovely and athletic foals.
Thanks again for your input!

[Cybele]

Thank you all for the great comments and suggestions! I am having her tested for WFFS. I have considered breeding her again to Royal Prince since that foal was a particularly stellar breeding. The Sir Gregory one is only 1 1/2 yrs old and was sold to a lady in Pennsylvania I believe (I am located in On, Canada) so it will be interesting to see how he evolves as a young riding horse.
I am still aiming for either a Furstenlook or a Finest but I will keep researching those D lines (especially with Lauries Crusador/ Londonderry). Since she has such amazing jumper lines I thought it would be interesting looking at old school jumper lines like the Escudos and Landkonigs/Landgräf. Anyone else here heard of Jus de Pomme?(1996 gold medallist Han/Old jumper at Atlanta?) She herself is most definitely a dressage mare but her pedigree and build would be well suited to produce an amazing jumper if well bred to a suitable jumping sire.
I will post pics of some of her foals on this forum and see what you guys think if you are interested.
Many thanks!

[weixiao]

@Cybele

Thank you all for the great comments and suggestions! I am having her tested for WFFS. I have considered breeding her again to Royal Prince since that foal was a particularly stellar breeding. The Sir Gregory one is only 1 1/2 yrs old and was sold to a lady in Pennsylvania I believe (I am located in On, Canada) so it will be interesting to see how he evolves as a young riding horse.
I am still aiming for either a Furstenlook or a Finest but I will keep researching those D lines (especially with Lauries Crusador/ Londonderry). Since she has such amazing jumper lines I thought it would be interesting looking at old school jumper lines like the Escudos and Landkonigs/Landgräf. Anyone else here heard of Jus de Pomme?(1996 gold medallist Han/Old jumper at Atlanta?) She herself is most definitely a dressage mare but her pedigree and build would be well suited to produce an amazing jumper if well bred to a suitable jumping sire.
I will post pics of some of her foals on this forum and see what you guys think if you are interested.
Many thanks!

I had a wonderful Jus de Pomme mare as a junior and have always wanted one by Navarone. I had a mare I wanted to breed to him but sadly she passed away unexpectedly. Navarone has produced wonderful dressage, event, and jumping horses. If you’re interested in those lines you should definitely take a look at him and speak with
@Majestic Gaits

[Majestic_Gaits]

Navarone is truly a special Jus de Pomme son. Has produced well in all disciplines but for sure they can jump and have the best character and trainability you can find.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I had a LARGE dressage broodmare by White Magic (son of Weltmyer) out of a Lemon mare. She was 17.3h…so I was always trying to bred her down. She was quirky as heck but lovely forward ride…just what you want for UL dressage. Canter to die for. Her last foal I bred for eventing and I crossed her with an AA named Persiflage. I got exactly what I was looking for (other than he is not a filly). I got my mare but more refined. Same movement as mare but slightly more compact and he is slightly smaller (although still tall). Just a thought…but I liked adding more blood and got a very versatile offspring stamped like his dam but slightly better temperament…that could just be how he Was raised. Her foal by Doc Wendall came out very very EASY mind, with a lot more sit and much shorter coupled. Apparently that filly really takes after her sire…and is very very similar to him (said by someone who rode him as a younger horse). Not sure if you can get him now that he sold to Europe.