Perhaps we could reach a settlement, like the difference between “dressage” (“It just means training” (eye-rolling icon)) and “Dressage” the art/competitive discipline. We can have “small w” warmblood, more correctly termed draft crosses, and “big W” warmbloods, horses selectively bred for GENERATIONS (not one-offs) with recognized types and registries. Still won’t help me when I’m horse searching and put in “warmblood” as a search parameter and get tons of “not what I want” draft crosses. Sigh.
I made the huge mistake…
Of reading the FB comments on the original article.
- If you feel strongly that a WB does not equal Draft x Tbred, don’t read it, some of the comments will make your BP spike
- If you really like show ring hunters, don’t read it, most of the comments will make your BP spike.
- I thought those who liked the COTH on FB were people more “in the know” or “in the biz”. I see a LOT of really ignorant comments.
- I can’t even comment back because it would be a waste of my time and you can’t argue with ignorant and stupid (said about the super ignorant comment on hunters).
[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8203737]
Of reading the FB comments on the original article.
- If you feel strongly that a WB does not equal Draft x Tbred, don’t read it, some of the comments will make your BP spike
- If you really like show ring hunters, don’t read it, most of the comments will make your BP spike.
- I thought those who liked the COTH on FB were people more “in the know” or “in the biz”. I see a LOT of really ignorant comments.
- I can’t even comment back because it would be a waste of my time and you can’t argue with ignorant and stupid (said about the super ignorant comment on hunters).[/QUOTE]
:lol:
pretty much sums up my experience with FB debates.
Like, water shortage in California:
BUT DAIRY FARMS AND RANCHES!!1!!11!!!eleven!!!
No, there aren’t that many, the true problem is land owners needing lush green laws and fountains in the middle of the desert!
BUT THEY USE SO MUCH MORE WATER MAKING MEAT THAN PRODUCE!!!
thinking about the big farms in the middle of the desert, growing lettuce, I highly doubt it, but at that time I don’t continue, when the other gal comes back with
‘FYI, there is palatable and unpalatable water, as I just learned on google!’
How good for you!
[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8203737]
3. I thought those who liked the COTH on FB were people more “in the know” or “in the biz”. I see a LOT of really ignorant comments. [/QUOTE]
I don’t remember exactly who, but it was a fabulous old picture of Rodney Jenkins or Joe Fargis or someone of similar talent and someone commented, ‘Heels Down! Always!’
[QUOTE=Alagirl;8203852]
:lol:
pretty much sums up my experience with FB debates.
Like, water shortage in California:
BUT DAIRY FARMS AND RANCHES!!1!!11!!!eleven!!!
No, there aren’t that many, the true problem is land owners needing lush green laws and fountains in the middle of the desert!
BUT THEY USE SO MUCH MORE WATER MAKING MEAT THAN PRODUCE!!!
thinking about the big farms in the middle of the desert, growing lettuce, I highly doubt it, but at that time I don’t continue, when the other gal comes back with
‘FYI, there is palatable and unpalatable water, as I just learned on google!’
How good for you![/QUOTE]
Yeah, but a gallon of water per almond? We gotta stop that.
Just interjecting a recent interwebz fact that has gotten some airplay recently and seemed relevant…. if you squint your eyes real hard.
I love almonds. Don’t stop.
[QUOTE=mvp;8203876]
Yeah, but a gallon of water per almond? We gotta stop that.
Just interjecting a recent interwebz fact that has gotten some airplay recently and seemed relevant…. if you squint your eyes real hard.[/QUOTE]
Oh, the ridiculous part is that they are going to replace drought tolerant olives with almonds…because prices for almonds are higher - along with the water usage!
best was though the article about an encalve of the super rich in So Cal, demanding unlimited water usage, because, well, THEY ARE RICH…and don’t want to look at brown lawns (paint it…)
Common sense…we don’t do.
Regardless, this is taking this way of tangent!
[QUOTE=Sunflower;8198884]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/lets-end-breedism-show-ring
I found this to be a very interesting read. It makes me wonder, however, if the people who look down on a draft TB x understand what a warmblood is. It is a draft TB x in origin. Cold blood plus hot blood equals warmblood-- that is where the name comes from! .[/QUOTE]
I’m sure after some 11+ pgs many, MANY people have corrected you Sunflower, because you are completely and totally wrong.
ANd what is most disappointing to me is the fact this old Cold + Hot = Warm simplistic crap is still around.
First of all, the American draft horses have always been bred to pull. Period. They were never bred as riding horses.
Now, for the actual WB in Germany, their actual appearance & intended use did vary a great deal depending on the region (with Oldenburg famous for fancy coach horses, while Trakehners & Hanoverians were ALWAYS bred primarily as riding horses.
Horse breeding in the Hanover region has been established since the Middle Ages. There are written records from before 1693 from officals in Engand, the Netherlands &Sweden praising the horses from the Hanover regions as top class RIDING horses; cavalry horses. NOT heavy animals built to pull.
A breeding station was established in Hanover in 1735 and the improvement stallions they used were acquired from HOLSTEIN, NOT TBs or Barbs or Arabs. Later on, improvement stallions were acquired from Mecklenburg (another region in Germany) & occasionally England.
The stallions were offered to area farmers for a modest fee, but although the mares were of a heavier type, they were most definitely multi-purpose.
During the early 1800’s a visiting equine expert stated “…you should visit the area of Hanover…where the broodmares owned by the farmers are often better than those to be found in the stables of princes.”
Starting in 1844, all stallions standing in Hanover had to be licensed. It was during this time that many stallions were acquired in England where they HAD been using TB stallions on heavier native mares. The result was a horse bred to pull the mail coaches.
THese horses were described as “large-framed, with substance, and possessed of great courage & endurance. They were capalbe of galloping for long periods of time without showing any signs of tiredness.”
So, again, NOT draft horses. Between 1830 & 1890 over 100 stallions of this type were imported from England to Hanover and played a large part in the development of the Hanoverian.
I could go on and on and on, but you guys can read the book yourself, “The Hanoverian” by Christian Freiherr von Stenglin (pub. 1983).
The point is that what Americans think is a warmblood (cold + hot = warm) is an inaccurate description of the term.
The actual FACTS are the German WB has been bred for 100’s of years and it’s actual breeding (genetically) is a mix that has been modified any number of times depending on the needs of the time(s).
I certainly was surprised to find out how many times the horses produced in the various regions of Germany were lightened, or improved , then modified again…bred heavily, then not so much…all depending on the time in history.
From the mid 1700’s to WWII various wars decimated the equine populations, so old stock was lost and new stock (bloodlines) had to be established. There were the famous Hanoverian cremes (actual cremellos), who were considered fancy coach horses used for State functions.
ALWAYS the goal was to produce a “purpose bred” animal, so there was no general goal to breed for “purity” like in Arabs & TBs. But the purpose was never primarily as an agricultural use animal.
The result was always to be either a fancy coach horse or riding/military type animal. The emphasis was ALWAYS on gaits, beauty, stamina and courage.
The history of the German WB is centuries old, and well documented (you know those Germans – they write everything down…:D).
To reduce it to “they bred the farmer’s draft mares to TB stallions” is not only wildly incorrect, but also fairly insulting IMHO.
So folks – all you “cold blood + hot blood = warmblood” folks out there: Spread the word!! The German warmblood is a breed in and of itself and has been cultivated and developed for centuries.
Now, since WBs became so popular (and this shows what happens when a breed is produced to service a PURPOSE and not just have a pure pedigree), just about every country in the world suddenly has a “warmblood”. And how these breeders have created them probably also varies widely.
But in each case (save perhaps here in America 
) the history is much more complicated than “I have a draft!” + “Well, I have a TB!” = (all together now!!) "Let’s make a WARMBLOOD!".
And I honestly can’t believe this BS theory is still out there…:eek::rolleyes:
http://www.hanoverian.org.au/the-hanoverian/ has a very different tale of origin.
Make of it what you will.
[QUOTE=Sunflower;8206789]
http://www.hanoverian.org.au/the-hanoverian/ has a very different tale of origin.
Make of it what you will.[/QUOTE]
I don’t see ‘draft’ as in cold blood in the history.
Yes, the old style Hanovarian was big boned…but still no draft. 
[QUOTE=Sunflower;8206789]
http://www.hanoverian.org.au/the-hanoverian/ has a very different tale of origin.
Make of it what you will.[/QUOTE]
Well I love that they picture Donnerhall Donnerhall was an Oldenburg
Am I the only one who no longer knows what the argument is in this thread?
Are there really people who think that all it takes to breed a horse of similar caliber as a branded Warmblood is to cross a Clydesdale with an OTTB? And that the resulting f1 is going to be a jumping or dressage star.
Are there people who think that draught horses in Europe in the 1700s were the same size and type as draft horses of today?
Why can’t a term mean two different things with one being a generalizes term used by evolutionists/biologists.
I come back to this thread really perplexed.
[QUOTE=roseymare;8206910]
Am I the only one who no longer knows what the argument is in this thread?
Are there really people who think that all it takes to breed a horse of similar caliber as a branded Warmblood is to cross a Clydesdale with an OTTB? And that the resulting f1 is going to be a jumping or dressage star.
Are there people who think that draught horses in Europe in the 1700s were the same size and type as draft horses of today?
Why can’t a term mean two different things with one being a generalizes term used by evolutionists/biologists.
I come back to this thread really perplexed.[/QUOTE]
you are just a hatin on the draft crosses.
Yep horrible critters…eat too much of my guacamole…
[QUOTE=Sunflower;8206789]
http://www.hanoverian.org.au/the-hanoverian/ has a very different tale of origin.
Make of it what you will.[/QUOTE]
As has been noted in the Breeding Forum thread, this account is as full of holes as a sieve. And the fact they have a picture of Donnerhall REALLY shows their ignorance, because as Manni noted, he was an Oldenburg!!
As for draft crosses being popular as field hunters – this goes back to the late '40’s through the '70’s, before German WBs became such a big thing. It was actually the true American WB; generally 3/4 TB + 1/4 draft.
And they are still popular with some. Nothing wrong with that at all. Draft crosses can be nice horses. A good friend of mine just won top scoring AA 2 days running riding her “pedigree unknown, but obviously part draft” that she picked up for $1800 on Craig’s List; I think she was riding 2nd Level.
So I’m not saying they can’t be nice horses. I’m just saying they are NOT warmbloods in the Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Holstein, etc. etc. sense. That’s all.
