[QUOTE=Alagirl;8201030]
No matter how often you repeat it, it won’t become truth.
No, draft X ‘hot’ blood will not make a warmblood.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sunflower;8201143]Yes, it is. Of course it is. That is what a warmblood is. That is where the term originates. Warmblood simply denotes a horse that has a lineage of hot mixed with cold.
…
Any hot/cold cross is a warmblood. [/QUOTE]
Hot coffee + cold coffee = warm coffee.
“Hot” horse + “cold” horse =/= warmblood. “Hot” horse + “cold” horse = draft cross.
Again,
[QUOTE=Alagirl;8201030]No matter how often you repeat it, it won’t become truth.
No, draft X ‘hot’ blood will not make a warmblood.[/QUOTE]
Warmbloods are not breeds. They are registries. Even the Traks, closest WB to a breed, allows outside blood.
Hunters are a type. They can be any breed as long as they fit the type. Many imported well bred WBs do not fit the type… you will find them in the jumper ring… and no one whines…
Can we at the very least agree that a registered Hannovarian is not the same as the Clyde/TB pulled out of someone’s yard? They they are generally (because some sort of freakish occurrence could happen) not going to be of the same quality and substance. I think it comes down to careful selective breeding, versus first generation crosses.
Irrespective of little 'w’s, big 'w’s, or lukewarm coffee.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8201255]
But warmblood does not = Warmblood.
Warmbloods are not breeds. They are registries. Even the Traks, closest WB to a breed, allows outside blood.
Hunters are a type. They can be any breed as long as they fit the type. Many imported well bred WBs do not fit the type… you will find them in the jumper ring… and no one whines…[/QUOTE]
Or the dressage ring.
Also don’t tell trakhener people they arent a breed. And in reality I’m hard pressed to think of a breed that doesn’t have any outside blood, even arabians, but I’d say they are probably the closest??
[QUOTE=Hobbs;8198925]
Are you suggesting that you find it insulting when your dog is referred to as a Labradoodle? Some people appreciate dogs for their intelligence and trainability and I have little doubt that most Labradoodles, a cross between a Poodle (breed intelligence ranking #2) and a Labrador Retriever (breed intelligence ranking #7) is generally a more intelligent, trainable dog than your Curly Coated Retriever ( breed intelligence ranking #41). So maybe you should take it as a compliment.
I agree that warmblood =/= Warmblood. There is no such thing as a warmblood (small w). People are certainly free to call their draft crosses warmbloods if it makes them feel better. But the reality is that they are still draft crosses.
Seriously the dog thing- I have a JRT who looks like a beagle. Mom is a normal looking JRT, dad is a normal looking JRT, he is…perfect. People get him mixed up all the time. I never get my panties wadded up over it. People are just trying to be nice and making conversation. Lighten up and get over it. This is your chance to be a breed ambassador, not a jerk.
Warmblood breed 1 x Warmblood breed 1= Warmblood breed 1
Warmblood breed 1 x Warmblood breed 2= Warmblood cross
Draft x Tb= Draft cross
This is frustrating for me shopping for a jumper prospect. I have seen people call their horses Warmblood crosses just to jack up the price a couple hundred or a couple thousand. I don’t care what the breed of the horse is as long as it is put together nicely, fits my personal aesthetic, suits my purpose, and is priced according to it’s potential and what it can do. By potential and what it can do, if it is registered, athletic, and/or has a show record, absolutely let the price reflect that.
I don’t understand the whole “Warmblood crosses” going for more money than other crosses. My own personal Warmblood cross (bless his heart) had nice bloodlines, but was just put together oddly for both his bred purpose (dressage) and his actual purpose (jumpers). It blows my mind that I probably could have sold him for a couple extra $100 simply because he was a Warmblood cross, even though he is a long backed, straight-shouldered, Roman nosed headshaker. But golly, he’s got a pretty coat and tail, and he’s a Warmblood.
(That being said, he is handsome, has a great heart and personality, and I adore him to bits. But even at the peak of his career, he was only worth about $10k, maybe.)
You left out Warmblood X TB…now, if you do it right, it’s a Warmblood.
Here, it’s a TB cross.
This is frustrating for me shopping for a jumper prospect. I have seen people call their horses Warmblood crosses just to jack up the price a couple hundred or a couple thousand. I don’t care what the breed of the horse is as long as it is put together nicely, fits my personal aesthetic, suits my purpose, and is priced according to it’s potential and what it can do. By potential and what it can do, if it is registered, athletic, and/or has a show record, absolutely let the price reflect that.
I don’t understand the whole “Warmblood crosses” going for more money than other crosses. My own personal Warmblood cross (bless his heart) had nice bloodlines, but was just put together oddly for both his bred purpose (dressage) and his actual purpose (jumpers). It blows my mind that I probably could have sold him for a couple extra $100 simply because he was a Warmblood cross, even though he is a long backed, straight-shouldered, Roman nosed headshaker. But golly, he’s got a pretty coat and tail, and he’s a Warmblood.
(That being said, he is handsome, has a great heart and personality, and I adore him to bits. But even at the peak of his career, he was only worth about $10k, maybe.)
Well, it always depends on the cross.
And frankly, you have to have the papers to prove that your madness has method when you cross the bloodlines of two registries (which these days are nearly identical anyhow) to get one branded by a third.
And while QH are ‘warmbloods’ in the overreaching definition, I don’t think they’d fetch extra (I remember the of QH turning up on the international jumper circuit 30 years ago. Beaty could jump houses, but he wasn’t but an overgrown pony, distances got him quite often.)
I did see the odd Andalusian approved by a ‘Warmblood’ registry though. MAN I wanted one of his foals BAD!!! (alas,the thumbs where much too short to count out that kind of cash) but certainly not your regular there.
Incorrect…Warmbloods as a whole are a breed. Some of my Warmbloods in my barn could be registered with 3 or 4 Warmblood registries… If I registered it Oldenburg it would be called an Oldenburg, if I registered it Hanoverian it would be called a Hanoverian…etc etc…registries…not individual breeds.
So…
Warmblood registry 1 x Warmblood registry 1 = Warmblood registry 1 (if you choose to register it with that particular studbook)…for most people’s purposes can be defined as a Warmblood.
Warmblood registry 1 x Warmblood registry 2 = also a Warmblood (not a cross)
You could call it a Warmblood registry 1 or 2…or something else depending on the registration, which would depend on studbook approvals and eligibility of the parents…but it’s a Warmblood.
Warmblood x other breed (Morgan, SB, Gypsy, Draft etc) = Warmblood cross
It may be eligible for a certificate of pedigree or the equivalent of that from a Warmblood studbook but it’s still a Warmblood cross
Thank you! I was trying to figure out how to phrase it. I’m not well-versed in the registry process. I knew Warmbloods were a breed as a whole, but couldn’t figure out how to phrase the types. I guess my guy is still a Warmblood cross- Andalusian x Trakehner.
[QUOTE=KandC;8201419]
I guess my guy is still a Warmblood cross- Andalusian x Trakehner.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily. Like I said, I saw a gorgeous Andalusian with Warmblood registry approval one time, and man, his babies where BEAUTIFUL!
Of course the ‘crosses’ where mostly with QH and TB…
(Genio III, RPSI…Like I said odd.)
[QUOTE=Alagirl;8201441]
Not necessarily. Like I said, I saw a gorgeous Andalusian with Warmblood registry approval one time, and man, his babies where BEAUTIFUL!
Of course the ‘crosses’ where mostly with QH and TB…
(Genio III, RPSI…Like I said odd.)[/QUOTE]
I have seen some gorgeous registered Andalusians x Warmbloods as well! Just not my guy. :lol: His sire was a Trakehner. Not sure if his Andalusian dam had approval.
[QUOTE=KandC;8201419]
Thank you! I was trying to figure out how to phrase it. I’m not well-versed in the registry process. I knew Warmbloods were a breed as a whole, but couldn’t figure out how to phrase the types. I guess my guy is still a Warmblood cross- Andalusian x Trakehner.[/QUOTE]
What you were missing in your objection to a “WB cross” is that both registries may share common blood (at some point), and dollars-to-donuts, both have high/long-standing standards regarding selection. And that’s what makes a WB cross arguably better than a draft cross, assuming the individual animal isn’t a train wreck. Similarly, one would hope that either the registries, or the individual breeder, combined “like with like” such that this individual represented the continuation of a consistent type. A draft x TB does not do that for either parental breed.
Now your WB cross-- Andalusian and Trakehner strikes me as a little more like the draft cross in the sense that those are not “like” types. That doesn’t mean its a bad combination in the individual. It doesn’t even mean that it’s a bad combination in terms of starting a new type of horse.
[QUOTE=mvp;8201460]
What you were missing in your objection to a “WB cross” is that both registries may share common blood (at some point), and dollars-to-donuts, both have high/long-standing standards regarding selection. And that’s what makes a WB cross arguably better than a draft cross, assuming the individual animal isn’t a train wreck. Similarly, one would hope that either the registries, or the individual breeder, combined “like with like” such that this individual represented the continuation of a consistent type. A draft x TB does not do that for either parental breed.
Now your WB cross-- Andalusian and Trakehner strikes me as a little more like the draft cross in the sense that those are not “like” types. That doesn’t mean its a bad combination in the individual. It doesn’t even mean that it’s a bad combination in terms of starting a new type of horse.
JMHO.[/QUOTE]
Oh, no. I definitely agree with your statement. Warmblood crosses have the potential to be trainwrecks just as much as draft crosses have the potential to be amazing, well balanced horses. I don’t find a problem with well done cross-breed pairings, but represent the animal accurately.
Where my poorly illustrated qualm was with people arbitrarily adding a zero or two to the horse’s value because they think it’s a “warmblood”.
So if you have a foal by a warmblood stallion approved by multiple registries out of a TB mare approved by one of those registries, is the foal a warmblood or a warmblood/TB cross? What if the mare is NOT approved?
[QUOTE=vandenbrink;8201407]
Incorrect…Warmbloods as a whole are a breed. Some of my Warmbloods in my barn could be registered with 3 or 4 Warmblood registries… If I registered it Oldenburg it would be called an Oldenburg, if I registered it Hanoverian it would be called a Hanoverian…etc etc…registries…not individual breeds.
So…
Warmblood registry 1 x Warmblood registry 1 = Warmblood registry 1 (if you choose to register it with that particular studbook)…for most people’s purposes can be defined as a Warmblood.
Warmblood registry 1 x Warmblood registry 2 = also a Warmblood (not a cross)
You could call it a Warmblood registry 1 or 2…or something else depending on the registration, which would depend on studbook approvals and eligibility of the parents…but it’s a Warmblood.
Warmblood x other breed (Morgan, SB, Gypsy, Draft etc) = Warmblood cross
It may be eligible for a certificate of pedigree or the equivalent of that from a Warmblood studbook but it’s still a Warmblood cross[/QUOTE]
THANK YOU!!! This thread was driving me crazy. I’m glad you spelled it out.
Threads like this drive me crazy…which is not a long way to drive. What americans call warmbloods, whether capitalW or not, are not the same as the warmbloods in the european registries. And yes, the trakehner in Germany is the closest thing to a “breed” as it comes, but it’s still a registry. All the other warmbloods over there in europe are in registries. ( There is not breed in europe called a
Warmblood breed. ) And can be graded into other registries since the whole idea is to make better jumpers and dressage horses and to improve the competitive horses.
I always use Cloudy as the example of an european WB. Registered and branded premium in the fatherland in the Hessen registry. (Which merged with the Hanoverian registry in 2010.) Cloudy’s paternal grandsire was Samber, graded into the Dutch Warmblood Registry in Holland. His maternal grandsire was the “french anglo arabian TB” yes that is what he was called, Inschallah, who was purchased by the burgermeister of Oldenburg and was graded into the Oldenburg registry in Germany. And Cloudy has some American TB blood in his ancestry, specifically the TB War Relic. And of course Inschallah had that Arab blood as well as French TB blood. So Inschallah was both an Oldenburg and a “French Anglo Arabian TB.” Neither is a breed. Registries in europe. Here in the states, people call horses anything at anytime. (And the french actually races those part bred TBs like Inschallah, or used to. So they were sometimes called a “breed” in France, but they were crossbreds.)
Please buy some european books to learn about european warmbloods.
Edited to add: And my ATA mare is by Impressionist and goes back to Donauwind. She’s in the American trakehner breed book. So while she’s a “breed” here, in Germany, she’d be in a registry. I could trace my TB mare Callie’s background back to 2 of the 3 founding studs of the TB breed…both arabs of course. But one of her ancestors went to Germany was was graded into a warmblood studbook.
[QUOTE=Sunflower;8201143]
Yes, it is. Of course it is. That is what a warmblood is. That is where the term originates. Warmblood simply denotes a horse that has a lineage of hot mixed with cold. [/QUOTE]
By your definition, a quarter horse would be a warmblood. I would strongly advise you NOT to go up to a QH breeder and mention this. They are smart enough to know what “warmblood” means. And, it’s NOT a QH. :lol:
OK, so let me get this straight… Purebreds are no longer Thoroughbreds, and sooner or later we will stop arguing about warmbloods being Warmbloods. They will now be referred to as F1 Hybrids
“We are no longer the knights who say Ni! We are now the knights who say ekki-ekki-ekki-pitang-zoom-boing!”
