Breedism and Warmbloods

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8204318]
There are still many people not involved with European Warmbloods in the USA who go by the warmblood equals crossbred of any combination of ‘pure cold’ (draft) and ‘pure hot’ (Arab, TB) in any generational background:

There are only 3 categories a horse can be in; hot, cold, warm. Pick one.

Nothing wrong with it, except it seems to get European Warmblood breeders hackles up. The 3 class system isn’t a designation used in Europe. -Although I do note that they refer to their stock as Sporthorses for differentiation.

one might say that a person in the USA that doesn’t use European before Warmblood is inaccurate if they are referring just to the WBFSH stock; while the actual warmblood is a mix designation, non-discipline specific.

Absolutely agree the OP directed her complaint in the wrong direction. Type and function, not breed, is the downfall.[/QUOTE]

When it comes to horses (as in many other things), the US is going to be different from Europe and the rest of the world. Don’t ask me why. For instance, take the US breed Spotted Saddle Horse. It means a pinto horse. In Britain and maybe the rest of the English-speaking horse world, a spotted horse is one with actual spots, like an Appaloosa or a Knabstrupper, not a horse with colored patches like a pinto. But here in the good ol’ USofA we have to be different.

So the American Warmblood registry includes draft crosses. Don’t ask me why. I have nothing against draft crosses. I like heavy horses (draft horses) and I have known a few draft crosses – including one with the pseudo-fancy name of Georgian Grande – and the ones I have known have been nice horses. I am not a WB breedist! :wink:

Maybe some people will find it easier to separate “warmblood” from “Warmblood,” if they like, and lump Hanoverians, Holsteiners, Trakehners, Westphalians, et al., into one group, as “warmbloods,” and to put Belgian WBs, Dutch, German, Hungarian, Swiss, Swedish, etc., WBs into another group and call them “Warmbloods” since “Warmblood” is actually a part of their breeds’ names.

I like the old term from my youth, “half-bred,” which then designated a horse that was half Thorougbred, half something else. I don’t think an Anglo-Arab was considered a half-bred back then, since after all an Anglo-Arab is a specific breed that was originally a cross between a TB and an Arabian, and TBs were originally a cross between an Arabian stallion and a cold-blooded (or maybe lower-case-w warmblood) mare.

I find it illogical (but not quite confusing) to refer to Hanoverians, Holsteiners, etc., as warmbloods when, when any of them are crossed with a TB or each other or some other breed, their offspring may be called Dutch or Belgian or Swedish or whatever Warmbloods); I also can’t always figure out the difference between a sport horse and a warmblood, unless it is an Irish Sport Horse, a Canadian Sport Horse, a Friesian Sport Horse, or a Paint Sport Horse, which breeds I presume are a cross between a TB and something that is not a European-derived Warmblood or warmblood (obviously not, in the case of the Paint SH and the Irish SH!).

For consistency, the US does call its version of the Irish Sport Horse an Irish DRAUGHT Sport Horse (love the “draught” spelling, don’t you? :lol:) just to distinguish its horses from their Irish-bred cousins.

Maybe it’s all down to the fact that very few people today want to refer to their horse as a “grade” horse (at one time an OK term), perhaps particularly people who do dressage, which is a discipline that originated on the European continent back when people in Britain had already adopted the forward seat because they had discovered hunting foxes with hounds.

OK, now hopefully someone will start a spin-off thread on the Canadian Horse (which is not the same as the Canadian SPORT Horse) so that we can discuss whether or not it has its roots in the Friesian or some other breed sent to Canada by Louis XIV!

OK, now hopefully someone will start a spin-off thread on the Canadian Horse (which is not the same as the Canadian SPORT Horse) so that we can discuss whether or not it has its roots in the Friesian or some other breed sent to Canada by Louis XIV!

This is the correct answer. French horses similar to the Merens went to Quebec.

‘Dutch’ horses were more often sent to New York (and less often successful).

The ‘English’ colonies and the ‘French’ colonies did not get along well and most exchanges of livestock resulted from raiding, not trading.

The Canadian and original ‘old type’ especially Bulrush derived Morgan were very close in genetic makeup.

Warmblod and European Warmblood

are like

LOL and ‘to lol one’s head’
Letters the same. Different meanings.

Language evolves over time.

English speakers have HORSES due to the Saxon overthrow of Britain.
They then gained CAVALRY when William the Conqueror made French the gentry language.

This argument continues forever and ever. Who cares? Everyone knows that there are good reasons why european warmbloods cost more than domestic warmbloods, as a general rule.

Call a horse whatever you want to. If it doesn’t have a “branded premium” european brand, you take your chances as to whether or not you will get a really good horse. Some domestic warmbloods are good. But the european warmbloods are scientifically bred for performance. And branded if they have the look. You get what you pay for.

In Ireland Irish sport horse is their catchall registry. It’s got to be something but not necessarily an Irish Draught, Connemara or TB. It need not have any Irish Draught blood at all for a non pedigree passport. ID’s were all purpose farm horses, meant for riding and certainly jumping and driving but not strictly draft.

Traditional Irish Draught breeders are often NOT fond of continental WB’s and to call an ID a warmblood would be taken by some as an insult.

In the US an IDSH has to be part Registered Irish Draught. The Registered means inspected and approved.

Word Nerd here.

I understand your point, but actually the spellings are different: “loll” is the head thing.

Then it is up to the seller to educate the buyer why one horse might be better than another.

Oh, that’s rich.

Someone selling a draft/qh/unknown x and calling it a warmblood is not going to explain that an Rline European bred is going to be a better UL dressage prospect. They’re going to say what so many people here say—that European horses are really not so much different and that these horses are priced high to rip off American buyers.

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8205019]
Oh, that’s rich.

Someone selling a draft/qh/unknown x and calling it a warmblood is not going to explain that an Rline European bred is going to be a better UL dressage prospect. They’re going to say what so many people here say—that European horses are really not so much different and that these horses are priced high to rip off American buyers.[/QUOTE]

Even more obnoxious I know a european breeder in the states who advertises his rpsi foals as Rhinelanders. He knows full well that zweibrucker, not rhinelander is the parent registry of rpsi. His market isn’t savvy horsemen, but the people who thought their rpsi papered arapaloosaverian was now a hanoverian.

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8205005]
Word Nerd here.

I understand your point, but actually the spellings are different: “loll” is the head thing.[/QUOTE]

…and now you know why I am no longer a professional proofreader.
You probably can define insure, assure, and ensure correctly. Definitely but not defiantly :slight_smile:

I shall now fritter away my time eating corn fritters and pondering the identical meaning of flammable and inflammable!

As in all purchasing, buyers get the level of value that their knowledge permits.

Plenty of knock-off Gucci, Rolex, and so on for the naïve. Not to mention the drug look-alikes from China…

Anyone selling untrained prospects is selling potential. This explains the higher prices for TB yearlings vs. their post-performance fall from grace.

Not every European WB foal marketed is a future Matine or Milton, either.

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8205111]
…and now you know why I am no longer a professional proofreader.
You probably can define insure, assure, and ensure correctly. Definitely but not defiantly :slight_smile:

I shall now fritter away my time eating corn fritters and pondering the identical meaning of flammable and inflammable![/QUOTE]

Oh yeah BTDT–writer/editor here…

Don’t forget active/passive voice, that/which, less/fewer and over/more than.

I get really annoyed when I’m reading for fun and mistakes jump off the page at me. I have to work at ignoring them…I try, I really do!

I know a european breeder in the states who advertises his rpsi foals as Rhinelanders.

Ugh!

it doesn’t really belong here but if you market your foal honest nobody is interested. Every buyer seems to go for flashy ads…:slight_smile: I tried to market my foal for more than a year for a very reasonable price and now I am going to keep her because I took all the risk in raising now anyhow and she going to turn out extremely fancy and I am going to enjoy that… So I think everybody gets what he deserves

[QUOTE=Manni01;8205359]
it doesn’t really belong here but if you market your foal honest nobody is interested. Every buyer seems to go for flashy ads…:slight_smile: I tried to market my foal for more than a year for a very reasonable price and now I am going to keep her because I took all the risk in raising now anyhow and she going to turn out extremely fancy and I am going to enjoy that… So I think everybody gets what he deserves[/QUOTE]

You are very pessimistic in your view point. I know you have many posts wondering why you have trouble selling horses and I am not sure why that is. But other breeders do sell horses, they are very good quality and they do not use dishonest methods. I guess you could review your methods.

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8205404]
You are very pessimistic in your view point. I know you have many posts wondering why you have trouble selling horses and I am not sure why that is. But other breeders do sell horses, they are very good quality and they do not use dishonest methods. I guess you could review your methods.[/QUOTE]

Oh, but when asking advice and given it, Manni makes very sure we know we are the ones who are wrong… :smiley:

if you think so… Netg I would like to see you in my situation :slight_smile: In another country with people with a different mentality, different language, no network to be in :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
True, I chose it that way and I enjoy it very much and I am seeing slowly, very slowly some progress … In the beginning everybody was full of prejudice against the foreigner… (why was I in the US?? That was huge proof that I wasn’t any good, because otherwise I would still be in Germany…) but now I think, that people are starting to accept that I am hard working and doing all I can… It just takes some time and maybe I was too impatient in the beginning.
Overall everything turned out very well, I finally did sell my horse to an extremely nice family who keeps very nice contact, so I am very happy with that .
Also the foal turned out even nicer than I thought she would so I am kind of excited about her future. And on top of all I have the perfect trainer who is amazing and really helping me. So looking forward to my future shows :slight_smile: So right now I have nothing to complain about.

Stockfish I am pessimistic by nature and I am sure that I am not the best person for selling horses because of that, but I am always happy when something turns out better then expected. And right now I can’t wait my 2 year old to turn 3 that I can back her. She recently got a 9 for her trot (8.2 total) for an in hand presentation at a show :slight_smile: So I think I was totally lucky that nobody bought her for 6500 a year ago :slight_smile:

You live in a different part of NA but I can honestly say that some of the best and most successful breeders in Alberta are from Holland and Germany. Most have thick accents and some still have trouble with English.

Sorry if you are experiencing prejudice but usually top riders and even really good riders have dealt with people from Europe, in fact many buy from there so they tend to have a positive bias towards breeders from those counties.

The notion that a “warmblood” is like warm water…hot+cold=warm is false. It is just a term that we adopted.

If one prefers the more accurate terminology should be “I breed European Pedigree Sport Horses (Hano, Old, Holst, Trak, etc)” versus “I breed American Pedigree Sport Horses”. The latter using traditional American breeds such as drafts, QHs, Tb, etc. But that would be a mouthful:)

A wee bit “OT”, but any suggestions for gently explaining the differences to people without seeming condescending?

I only run across this from time to time, but there are horse owners “within my sphere” who market grade horses (WB/QH/TB/Morgan, etc.) as “American WBs”, and they are clearly confused as to what constitutes a WB.

Not of my business, so I never say anything ;), but just wondering whether anyone had any thoughts on this…

I always thought the smart marketing process was I have an ____ (breed name) for sale. This is a copy of his papers. This breeding happened because these ancestors have these performance records, these relatives have these performance records, these BNTs are having this success with young relatives.

There was improvement over his dam in these areas…

-No mention of Warmblood or Sporthorse at all. Either horse is suited to the job; demonstrating talent and temperament -and training- for Discipline ‘big ring’ or it isn’t.

Just because some person comes from a ‘Professional’ family doesn’t indicate whether ancestors were Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers or, well, owned a House of Ill Repute.

Due diligence is always necessary.