Breedism and Warmbloods

[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;8205916]
A wee bit “OT”, but any suggestions for gently explaining the differences to people without seeming condescending?

I only run across this from time to time, but there are horse owners “within my sphere” who market grade horses (WB/QH/TB/Morgan, etc.) as “American WBs”, and they are clearly confused as to what constitutes a WB.

Not of my business, so I never say anything ;), but just wondering whether anyone had any thoughts on this…[/QUOTE]

Ask if they are in the American Warmblood registry, with papers. If so, then stifle thyself.

If not, then I prefer to ask what discipline they feel the horse is suited to -and why. If the horse does not have performing relatives then explain that the price will not be as high as Horses from performing ancestry.

Really, the only reason people are throwing out the term warmblood is because they believe there is value $$$$ to it.

[QUOTE=Manni01;8205438]
if you think so… Netg I would like to see you in my situation :slight_smile: In another country with people with a different mentality, different language, no network to be in :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
True, I chose it that way and I enjoy it very much and I am seeing slowly, very slowly some progress … In the beginning everybody was full of prejudice against the foreigner… (why was I in the US?? That was huge proof that I wasn’t any good, because otherwise I would still be in Germany…) but now I think, that people are starting to accept that I am hard working and doing all I can… It just takes some time and maybe I was too impatient in the beginning.[/QUOTE]

I don’t hear your accent in writing. You write quite well, and better than many Americans.

However, when you have asked for advice on ads you have been given very specific ideas on what would help as your ads were poorly formulated for your given market. You insist that people won’t buy horses, that people are prejudiced against you, that sellers are idiots, etc., but you won’t accept offered help to turn an ad into one which would really reach your key markets. That is your choice, and has nothing to do with where you were born.

sorry doublepost

Netg Thank you :slight_smile: but how do you know that I dont take advice? In fact I sold that horse because I did take advice from people on COTH … Somebody offered to rewrite the ad and I PMed him and He did :). And I used that text to answer the request of a person looking for a horse… And believe it or not this Person bought the horse :slight_smile: So probably because of the text !!! So why do you think I dont take advice???

Well I am completely confused… so I gather most horses in the world are little w warmbloods.

My Hannoverian is not a breed but a registry (what breed is my horse European Warmblood?)

I do know that I don’t love browsing for adds to find a draft cross called a warmblood or a fully bred quarter horse that has been accepted into the AWA a warmblood.

But those are only going to trap the people who don’t know better into losing a bit of extra money, now its the people selling devil ponies to unsuspecting and uneducated parents that really get me mad!

p.s. I am not aiming that last comment at any one on coth, I have just seen neighbor kids get hurt from such situations.

We have to take into consideration common usage of words. warmblood or Warmblood to me means the horse is registered with a warmblood registry, a Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Selle Français, whatever. If you start calling your American Quarter Horse, saddlebred, whatever a warmblood that is just being silly. JMO. Why can’t it be what it is? I don’t buy a warmblood to chase cows or compete in reining. Not that you can’t, but you know what I mean. You don’t race a Dutch harness horse against a standardbred. I’m glad I haven’t met anyone yet who was describing their QH as a warmblood. Around here people are pretty happy with their QHs I guess.

Your clydesdale thoroughbred is a draft cross or thoroughbred cross.

Kimchi, your horse is a warmblood. It is registered Hanoverian. :slight_smile: If an Arabian is accepted into a warmblood registry it is still an Arabian. It is approved for breeding with XYZ.

This is why bloodlines are so important.

manni01, warmbloods have seen just the opposite situation with German breeders and importers and trainers in Florida and throughout the southeastern USA. Most people want the German horses and want the German instructors and trainers.

While there is always some envy by people, such as the woman who was fired from a big community barn for other reasons, but who said that the women at that barn all wanted expensive european warmbloods rather than the 1/2quarter horse, 1/2 saddlebred that she was trying to sell them, most people want the european knowledge and embrace the foreigners who come over here to work with horses and riders. You just have to adapt to the American way of life and horses. And show how your horses can help Americans become better riders and breeders.

There is no WARMBLOOD registry or Breed.

There are Federations of breeders of Warmblood horses comprising many registries of Sporthorses, most of which do not have ‘Warmblood’ as part of their breed name.

Exceptions would be AWS and AWR.

Breeds can have Registry books that are open or closed; most Managed regional registries in Europe are open-with restrictions.

Warmblood is a blanket term. How far the blanket spreads depends on one’s history with horses and breed names.

The offspring of 2 horses of different registries is registered in the Regional registry if parents are approved and entered. Usually in the Dam’s registry because that is where she ‘lives’.

Saying you have a warmblood or Warmblood means little without the breed and pedigree.

European Warmbloods are a breed.
Every registry has basically the same type Warmblood they are breeding for except maybe the Holsteiner or the Trakhener. They have their own traditions.

All the other ones are regional because of the history of Germany.
But today they are getting more and more mixed up and some of them went together already, like the German Sporthorse is a combination of some of the southern registries. Also Hannover and Rhineland went together.

And the mare I sold was a very good example too… She was from a pure Hannovarian Damline. Basically going back to Woermann. But her father died very young before he was approved for Hannover as it was planned. He was a Holsteiner approved for Oldenburg. So the breeders of my mare had to register her with Oldenburg (Hanoverians are a little stubborn about single permissions :slight_smile: )

So now I owned an Oldenburg mare and bred an Oldenburg premium foal out of her. Thats the way it goes in Europe.
But the basic breed is the European Warmblood with all the different registries. Also the Warmbloods in Sweden , Denmark and other European Countries are only local registries. They all breed for the same type. So the brand only shows where the horse was bred. But the Breed is always the same.

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8206350]
There is no WARMBLOOD registry or Breed.

There are Federations of breeders of Warmblood horses comprising many registries of Sporthorses, most of which do not have ‘Warmblood’ as part of their breed name.

Exceptions would be AWS and AWR.

Breeds can have Registry books that are open or closed; most Managed regional registries in Europe are open-with restrictions.

Warmblood is a blanket term. How far the blanket spreads depends on one’s history with horses and breed names.

The offspring of 2 horses of different registries is registered in the Regional registry if parents are approved and entered. Usually in the Dam’s registry because that is where she ‘lives’.

Saying you have a warmblood or Warmblood means little without the breed and pedigree.[/QUOTE]

Wrong.

In Canada there is a piece of legislation called the Pedigree Act, it governs all animals that have papers. The act has great detail in what is accepted as a breed and how that breed most conduct itself. So Canadian Warmblood did a ridiculous amount of pedigree work to prove they are in fact a breed. I did a very small amount of work on that project (in comparison to YEARS) but it became very clear when I went through 2000 prominent WB pedigrees that they really do all have common ancestors. The registries long ago had somewhat distinct bloodlines but in the last 70 years most of them have been crossed and that is even more true now with many registries opening up.

So the short of it, that a Warmblood is a legal breed in Canada where the Pedigree Act is well respected and has very high standards for what is recognized as a breed (they will not accept the QH because there is no recognized founding population that anyone has brought forward).

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8206452]
Wrong.

In Canada there is a piece of legislation called the Pedigree Act, it governs all animals that have papers. The act has great detail in what is accepted as a breed and how that breed most conduct itself. So Canadian Warmblood did a ridiculous amount of pedigree work to prove they are in fact a breed. I did a very small amount of work on that project (in comparison to YEARS) but it became very clear when I went through 2000 prominent WB pedigrees that they really do all have common ancestors. The registries long ago had somewhat distinct bloodlines but in the last 70 years most of them have been crossed and that is even more true now with many registries opening up.

So the short of it, that a Warmblood is a legal breed in Canada where the Pedigree Act is well respected and has very high standards for what is recognized as a breed (they will not accept the QH because there is no recognized founding population that anyone has brought forward).[/QUOTE]
Wow thats interesting information… I did not know that. Thank you!!!

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8206452]
Wrong.

In Canada there is a piece of legislation called the Pedigree Act, it governs all animals that have papers. The act has great detail in what is accepted as a breed and how that breed most conduct itself. So Canadian Warmblood did a ridiculous amount of pedigree work to prove they are in fact a breed. I did a very small amount of work on that project (in comparison to YEARS) but it became very clear when I went through 2000 prominent WB pedigrees that they really do all have common ancestors. The registries long ago had somewhat distinct bloodlines but in the last 70 years most of them have been crossed and that is even more true now with many registries opening up.

So the short of it, that a Warmblood is a legal breed in Canada where the Pedigree Act is well respected and has very high standards for what is recognized as a breed (they will not accept the QH because there is no recognized founding population that anyone has brought forward).[/QUOTE]

Interesting.

If I’m reading the information correctly, the Canadian Warmblood is the only warmblood breed recognized under the Animal Pedigree Act. Maybe the others just didn’t want to compile all the pedigree info necessary for recognition?

Website: www.agr.gc.ca/eng/industry-markets-and-trade/statistics-and-market-information/by-product-sector/animal-genetics/animal-pedigree-act/?id=1382649715170

The Canadian Warmblood embraces all the major registries, like the Dutch, also like the Dutch who borrow other registry horses and re labels them as Dutch. They all do that to a point so in the end the population is not that segregated.
So if the KWPN did want to come in as a breed, they would be redundant. Registries are permitted but the Government of Canada will not regulate the papers or process.

Which is fine as I doubt the European registries want to give up membership or control. They still have one of the best systems for quality.

This is a copy of my response on the original thread. Honestly, I am SO disappointed that this BS theory is still out there.

I am half-way through this great book “The Hanoverian” which I mention. Amazing how far back the development of the German warmblood (and specifically in the Hanover region) has changed, adapted, modified, etc.

Great book and very enlightening.

WB breeders can skip the lecture to Sunflower & her ilk, but might enjoy the historical parts…

***** TO “SUNFLOWER”: I’m sure after some 11+ pgs many, MANY people have corrected you Sunflower, because you are completely and totally wrong.

ANd what is most disappointing to me is the fact this old Cold + Hot = Warm simplistic crap is still around.

First of all, the American draft horses have always been bred to pull. Period. They were never bred as riding horses.

Now, for the actual WB in Germany, their actual appearance & intended use did vary a great deal depending on the region (with Oldenburg famous for fancy coach horses, while Trakehners & Hanoverians were ALWAYS bred primarily as riding horses.

Horse breeding in the Hanover region has been established since the Middle Ages. There are written records from before 1693 from officals in Engand, the Netherlands &Sweden praising the horses from the Hanover regions as top class RIDING horses; cavalry horses. NOT heavy animals built to pull.

A breeding station was established in Hanover in 1735 and the improvement stallions they used were acquired from HOLSTEIN, NOT TBs or Barbs or Arabs. Later on, improvement stallions were acquired from Mecklenburg (another region in Germany) & occasionally England.

The stallions were offered to area farmers for a modest fee, but although the mares were of a heavier type, they were most definitely multi-purpose.

During the early 1800’s a visiting equine expert stated “…you should visit the area of Hanover…where the broodmares owned by the farmers are often better than those to be found in the stables of princes.”

Starting in 1844, all stallions standing in Hanover had to be licensed. It was during this time that many stallions were acquired in England where they HAD been using TB stallions on heavier native mares. The result was a horse bred to pull the mail coaches.

THese horses were described as “large-framed, with substance, and possessed of great courage & endurance. They were capalbe of galloping for long periods of time without showing any signs of tiredness.”

So, again, NOT draft horses. Between 1830 & 1890 over 100 stallions of this type were imported from England to Hanover and played a large part in the development of the Hanoverian.

I could go on and on and on, but you guys can read the book yourself, “The Hanoverian” by Christian Freiherr von Stenglin (pub. 1983).

The point is that what Americans think is a warmblood (cold + hot = warm) is an inaccurate description of the term.

The actual FACTS are the German WB has been bred for 100’s of years and it’s actual breeding (genetically) is a mix that has been modified any number of times depending on the needs of the time(s).

I certainly was surprised to find out how many times the horses produced in the various regions of Germany were lightened, or improved , then modified again…bred heavily, then not so much…all depending on the time in history.

From the mid 1700’s to WWII various wars decimated the equine populations, so old stock was lost and new stock (bloodlines) had to be established. There were the famous Hanoverian cremes (actual cremellos), who were considered fancy coach horses used for State functions.

ALWAYS the goal was to produce a “purpose bred” animal, so there was no general goal to breed for “purity” like in Arabs & TBs. But the purpose was never primarily as an agricultural use animal.

The result was always to be either a fancy coach horse or riding/military type animal. The emphasis was ALWAYS on gaits, beauty, stamina and courage.

The history of the German WB is centuries old, and well documented (you know those Germans – they write everything down…:D).

To reduce it to “they bred the farmer’s draft mares to TB stallions” is not only wildly incorrect, but also fairly insulting IMHO.

So folks – all you “cold blood + hot blood = warmblood” folks out there: Spread the word!! The German warmblood is a breed in and of itself and has been cultivated and developed for centuries.

Now, since WBs became so popular (and this shows what happens when a breed is produced to service a PURPOSE and not just have a pure pedigree), just about every country in the world suddenly has a “warmblood”. And how these breeders have created them probably also varies widely.

But in each case (save perhaps here in America :cool:) the history is much more complicated than “I have a draft!” + “Well, I have a TB!” = (all together now!!) "Let’s make a WARMBLOOD!".

And I honestly can’t believe this BS theory is still out there…:eek::rolleyes: ****

The Hanoverian Horse Society of Australia has a very different origin story of the breed than what has been posted immediately above.

http://www.hanoverian.org.au/the-hanoverian/

I don’t see a very different story, just a misunderstanding of what is meant by a farm horse. Rural people had horses that had to do everything, riding and farm work. Many people that don’t live on farms and only see their horse in a stall being boarded will not understand how it works on a farm. Everything works for a living and does several different jobs.
I bet my one Wb who is older style could plough and haul like a champ, he is soo strong. But he is more because of his breeding. Don’t confuse the possible work with purpose.

BTW, it never said draft, just described a type that applies to many Wb horses today. In the last 15 years they are getting lighter but the old style totally matched that description.

“In Germany, the horse was traditionally used in agriculture as a work beast associated with pulling a plough or cart. The horse was heavy in frame, strong and robust, but with a willing and trainable temperament – a characteristic suitable for what it was bred to undertake.” from http://www.hanoverian.org.au/the-hanoverian/

The poster above says that the forerunners of the Hanoverian did not pull plows or carts. This organization says that they did.

It also indicates 3 foundation lines going back to Barb and Arabian stallion lines, coincidentally ( or not) the 3 foundation sires of the Thoroughbred. Not really surprising that there is a connection as at that point in history, King George III of England was also the Elector of Hanover.

Among other differences in the story of the origin.

It is all there to read. Make of it what you will.

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8206689]

ANd what is most disappointing to me is the fact this old Cold + Hot = Warm simplistic crap is still around.

****[/QUOTE]

You are correct, cold+hot does not = warm. The original use of the terms in the US was to describe horse types. Hot is Arab, Tbred, Barb. Cold is draft - Clydes, Shire, Perchie, etc. Warm (or I should say warm) is the in between horses - Morgans, Saddlebreds, Appaloosas, etc. The normal “saddle horses” that we find in the US.

The US and Europe have always had very different practices - our registries have traditionally been breed registries for purebred animals. These registries are dependent more on pedigree then on performance. A purebred bred to a purebred = a registrable purebred. This applies to dogs, horses, cats, pigs, cattle, etc.

Europe’s registries were based on region, and were based, not on purebred to purebred, but on purpose bred to purpose bred. And of course, with a much longer history because, well, the US is a pretty new country.

So it makes sense that we use terminology differently.

I agree with you - the Warmblood is not a draft/Tbred cross. It is a multi-generation purpose bred horse.

I have registered some of my horses with AWS - but I do NOT represent them as Warmbloods - I do sometimes call them Warmblood crosses because they are all out of Euro bred/registered mares (KWPN, Hanoverian, Wurtemburg, RPSI, etc). I do feel it is disingenuous to call a horse a Warmblood unless it is really a Warmblood.

But I also don’t get why it is such a BIG DEAL… Most Buyers really do know the difference - and if they don’t, they are probably in such a low price range, that it doesn’t matter, they can’t AFFORD a Warmblood, they are lucky to find a “warmblood”.

And - if the horse is really registered with AWS or AWR, I guess they can call it that (I still think it is disingenuous, but WTH, are they hurting anything?). Honestly - I see a lot of horses advertised as American Warmblood and they aren’t - aren’t registered at all. So don’t believe everything you see advertised, that is for sure!

I find it interesting to look at the extended pedigree of my warmblood mare (Westfalen registered) and see where the TB, Anglo-Arab, Arabian, Shagya and SF ancestors were. At what point did these horses become “real warmbloods” rather than part-breds? With the site below, you can also see photographs back to 1800s, then paintings of the horses. I find it informative. In case this site is not general knowledge, here are links to a couple well known sires, but you can add your own horse or look up a horse:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=528581
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=304923

The poster above says that the forerunners of the Hanoverian did not pull plows or carts. This organization says that they did.

It also indicates 3 foundation lines going back to Barb and Arabian stallion lines, coincidentally ( or not) the 3 foundation sires of the Thoroughbred. Not really surprising that there is a connection as at that point in history, King George III of England was also the Elector of Hanover.

No one on this board would/should dispute the Tb influence. Everyone knows that.
And once again, not to be rude but just because a horse was used on a farm does not make it a draft horse. Most people were rural residences at that time and all used horses for everything. And once again, my Wb could probably fit that description and could do the job. Doesn’t make him a draft horse, it makes him " heavy in frame, strong and robust, but with a willing and trainable temperament".
This is a draft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardennes_horse . Not used for Wb creation.
You are making a huge leap from a heavy in frame to draft. If you actually speak to breeders in Europe, they will tell you, instead of Googling and making assumptions.