Breedism and Warmbloods

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Cranberry;8206893]
I find it interesting to look at the extended pedigree of my warmblood mare (Westfalen registered) and see where the TB, Anglo-Arab, Arabian, Shagya and SF ancestors were. At what point did these horses become “real warmbloods” rather than part-breds? With the site below, you can also see photographs back to 1800s, then paintings of the horses. I find it informative. In case this site is not general knowledge, here are links to a couple well known sires, but you can add your own horse or look up a horse:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=528581
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=304923[/QUOTE]

They are never a part bred. http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=418975
Those Breed’s are considered part of the Wb improvement breeding stock. They are the breeds that created the modern WB. Like adding a Tb to a QH.

[Cranberry]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8207062]
They are never a part bred. http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=418975
Those Breed’s are considered part of the Wb improvement breeding stock. They are the breeds that created the modern WB. Like adding a Tb to a QH.[/QUOTE]

Yes that makes sense considering these were purpose-bred horses with open stud book registries. It seems most European Warmblood registries will approve TB and Arabian/AA mares or stallions, but I’ve never heard of a draft or half-draft approved, right? When I look at the ancestors on the sport horse data site, I do not see draft horses as we think of them today, although there were certainly some heavier horses with docked tails (farm or carriage horses?). Of course I’m only looking at a small sample.

[ahf]

[QUOTE=Sunflower;8206787]
“In Germany, the horse was traditionally used in agriculture as a work beast associated with pulling a plough or cart. The horse was heavy in frame, strong and robust, but with a willing and trainable temperament – a characteristic suitable for what it was bred to undertake.” from http://www.hanoverian.org.au/the-hanoverian/

The poster above says that the forerunners of the Hanoverian did not pull plows or carts. This organization says that they did.

It also indicates 3 foundation lines going back to Barb and Arabian stallion lines, coincidentally ( or not) the 3 foundation sires of the Thoroughbred. Not really surprising that there is a connection as at that point in history, King George III of England was also the Elector of Hanover.

Among other differences in the story of the origin.

It is all there to read. Make of it what you will.[/QUOTE]

The Australian website is wrong. The definitive history of the Hanoverian breed is the von Stenglin book extensively referenced by Kyzteke above, which was translated to English in 1983.

It makes for highly educational reading, and belongs in the home library of any serious breeder. Out of print now, you can still get copies… here’s one for $5 on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Hanoverian-Allen-Series-Freiherr-Stenglin/dp/0851314783

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Sunflower;8206722]
The Hanoverian Horse Society of Australia has a very different origin story of the breed than what has been posted immediately above.

http://www.hanoverian.org.au/the-hanoverian/[/QUOTE]

Well, I’ll take the one that was written by a German historian who can read the records in the original German. The author has endless documentation of bloodlines, descriptions of the original 12 “Holstein Blacks” and endless descriptions of the foundation stock.

He even lists the stud fee for the stallions at the original Celle (something like 40# of oats).

Obviously history is only as good as the historian doing the research, and his seems pretty solid.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=ahf;8207118]
The Australian website is wrong. The definitive history of the Hanoverian breed is the von Stenglin book extensively referenced by Kyzteke above, which was translated to English in 1983.

It makes for highly educational reading, and belongs in the home library of any serious breeder. Out of print now, you can still get copies… here’s one for $5 on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Hanoverian-Allen-Series-Freiherr-Stenglin/dp/0851314783[/QUOTE]

Thank you. Perhaps Sunflower can order herself a copy. Or maybe someone should advise the Australian Hanoverian Society where to get a copy…

What I found VERY interesting is that the use of English TB “improvement sires” as we know it did not start in Hanover till around 1850 – fully 115 years AFTER Celle was established.

Prior to that the stallions were acquired from other areas of Germany, Spain and Italy. And even when the English stallions were brought over, they were NOT PB TBs, but instead the “mail coach” types I described earlier.

Actual racing/sport type TBs were not used heavily till quite late in the Hanoverian development – in the late 1800’s & early 1900’s. This when the emphasis slowly began to turn from a “multi purpose” animal with some agriculture use to a talented animal bred strictly for sport.

WWI pretty much saw the end of horses use for military use and after WWII the breeding goals turned 100% to a riding horses.

And all kinds of “improvement” stallions were used…von Stenglin even mentions one very popular stallion whose pedigree was unknown. So again, the ideas of hot + cold = warm and the simplistic concept that the warmbloods were made from heavy draft mares bred to TB stallions is incorrect.

It’s a long and complicated history of this breed that takes many twists & turns…they are a “breed” or “type” who have been being bred almost as long as the English TB itself.

It certainly was a BIG education for me…

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8207737]
Thank you. Perhaps Sunflower can order herself a copy. Or maybe someone should advise the Australian Hanoverian Society where to get a copy…

What I found VERY interesting is that the use of English TB “improvement sires” as we know it did not start in Hanover till around 1850 – fully 115 years AFTER Celle was established.

Prior to that the stallions were acquired from other areas of Germany, Spain and Italy. And even when the English stallions were brought over, they were NOT PB TBs, but instead the “mail coach” types I described earlier.

Actual racing/sport type TBs were not used heavily till quite late in the Hanoverian development – in the late 1800’s & early 1900’s. This when the emphasis slowly began to turn from a “multi purpose” animal with some agriculture use to a talented animal bred strictly for sport.

WWI pretty much saw the end of horses use for military use and after WWII the breeding goals turned 100% to a riding horses.

And all kinds of “improvement” stallions were used…von Stenglin even mentions one very popular stallion whose pedigree was unknown. So again, the ideas of hot + cold = warm and the simplistic concept that the warmbloods were made from heavy draft mares bred to TB stallions is incorrect.

It’s a long and complicated history of this breed that takes many twists & turns…they are a “breed” or “type” who have been being bred almost as long as the English TB itself.

It certainly was a BIG education for me…[/QUOTE]

The Type has NOT been consistent over the 300 year period. The mare base has been the focus of lineage derivation and type has swung like a pendulum based on the needs of the day. Anyone who believes the wonderful coach horses pre 1900 would be competitive in modern olympic sport is indulging in mere wishful thinking.

The modern Sport European Warmblood ‘pool’ is a result of top-crossing of ‘hot blood’ onto the active and good tempered marebase in a concerted effort after WW2. ‘Native’ tail-male lines do not exist as they have been lost in favor of lighter and hotter horses for Sport.

-The only American Draft breed(S) were the Conestoga horse (You can guess when that died out) and the American Creme. We had to import all the others from …Europe. Goodness.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8207757]
The Type has NOT been consistent over the 300 year period. .[/QUOTE]

True. I noted that in my first post about how the Hanoverian (a “type” bred in the region of Hanover of over 300 yrs…or do you call them a “breed”? Either word fits) was changed and modified many times with many different bloodlines over the centuries, depending on the market. But they were always considered “Hanoverians.”

And they were NEVER bred to be a draft-type animal. They were always bred to be riding horses or fancy coach horses capable of SOME agriculture or “light military” use.

I know my foundation WB mare could have pulled a wagon if need be…probably even a plow…

[D_BaldStockings]

I don’t understand why it is so difficult to refer to a horse by registry, rather than ‘warmblood’.

The registries themselves are about performance; one can’t predict that a ‘warmblood’ will be dressage or jumper directed without knowing the pedigree is Selle Francais or Hannoverian.

To me warmblood is a very generic and broad, therefore rather meaningless label -if I am looking for specific talent.

Of course one always must judge the horse in front of them; some papers would better line the birdcage…

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I wonder what the author of the Chronicle article things of this thread. Do you think she has seen it?

[stoicfish]

I was the kid that rode a $600 dollar grade horse. And there was a bit of “class” issue but now that I think about it, it was mostly on my side. I made assumptions about how people thought of my horse or me, and was insecure that others might be judging my horse. And thought a Wb was this fancy animal that was unattainable to a kid that had to pay for her own horse.
Fast forward. Now that I have owned them for the last 20 years, I don’t see them as different from any other horse or fancy. Like any horse, the ones that are good at a job are worth more. They are purpose bred for certain traits, and I have come to appreciate the methodology in how they are produced. The selection process is excellent in terms of producing a better animal. Individual breeders have always been around that used these principals but applying it to the whole group is so much better.
I think people need to be honest with themselves about their own issues with how they perceive themselves in a money intensive sport (aka hobby) and how the horse “fits” into that thinking.
Wb’s can be expensive but so can any breed (I love it when a Tb person says fancy Wb and I have never heard of a WB stud fee being 25k or 500k, that seems fancy to me). I honestly think it is more about people wanting to be an underdog, or people resenting other people’s resources than it is to do with horses.

[D_BaldStockings]

Most of the selelction of breeding animals is being done on the sire side, vs. the dam. There are still mares with meh inspection scores or even uninspected whose parents are already in the book that will produce registerable foals. And the mare owners are the usual selectors of any sire whether the organization would like them to go another direction or not. Of course there have been major ‘purges’ along the way, and it is more restrictive than most USA registries.

A purpose bred horse that achieves it’s purpose is worth lots of money; the rest are like putting pigs in silk purses - it is just a pig.

And there seem to be many who think their pigs are deserving of silk purse status because they are purpose bred; without success at that purpose.

And there are a few riders who still believe that the mounting a purpose bred horse makes them ride better; if only…

I admire good horses of every breed and (gasp) crosses -when they perform. When they don’t they are no more valuable than an Auction-run pick up for $1,000 to me. To a ‘trainer’ with clientele able to give a good spiel, that could be a $10,000 sale if it is a warmblood; or can be passed off as one.

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

Was haben sie gesagt? Nein.
European warmbloods, whether capital W or little w, are nicht a breed. The whole idea of european warmbloods is to keep improving the registries to make the horses better at jumping and dressage. So a warmblood in one registry can be bred to a warmblood in another registry to try to produce a horse that excels in one or both disciplines.

[QUOTE=Manni01;8206363]
European Warmbloods are a breed.
Every registry has basically the same type Warmblood they are breeding for except maybe the Holsteiner or the Trakhener. They have their own traditions.

All the other ones are regional because of the history of Germany.
But today they are getting more and more mixed up and some of them went together already, like the German Sporthorse is a combination of some of the southern registries. Also Hannover and Rhineland went together.

And the mare I sold was a very good example too… She was from a pure Hannovarian Damline. Basically going back to Woermann. But her father died very young before he was approved for Hannover as it was planned. He was a Holsteiner approved for Oldenburg. So the breeders of my mare had to register her with Oldenburg (Hanoverians are a little stubborn about single permissions )

So now I owned an Oldenburg mare and bred an Oldenburg premium foal out of her. Thats the way it goes in Europe.
But the basic breed is the European Warmblood with all the different registries. Also the Warmbloods in Sweden , Denmark and other European Countries are only local registries. They all breed for the same type. So the brand only shows where the horse was bred. But the Breed is always the same.[/QUOTE]

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=WildandWickedWarmbloods;8213740]
Was haben sie gesagt? Nein.
European warmbloods, whether capital W or little w, are nicht a breed. The whole idea of european warmbloods is to keep improving the registries to make the horses better at jumping and dressage. So a warmblood in one registry can be bred to a warmblood in another registry to try to produce a horse that excels in one or both disciplines.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but as a group they can be considered a breed.
Any breed also has regional populations with unique genetics (especially before frozen) and breed for different purposes within the breed. Think of a racing Qh compared to a beefed up halter Qh - not even close to the same purpose or type.

People confuse arbitrary groupings (registries) with genetic differences (which defines a breed) but the reality is that Wb’s are very similar genetically and share purpose.
Follow the sire line on your Wb and there is like a 60% + chance you will run into Eclipse. How is that for common ancestors? There is like 2 other stallions that you might find.

Some people do not actually understand what constitutes a breed beyond a name, so the registries confuse the issue. If your going to discount Wb’s you probably need to discount QH’s and a ton of other breeds that also have variation and add improvement blood.

[SportArab]

They can be considered a breed in that if you breed two together the results are somewhat predictable. Cross a hot blooded horse with a cold blooded one and the results are pretty unpredictable. Sure, some of them may turn out nice. But what about all the ones that don’t. Nobody likes to address that. Beyond that, I’m not convinced of the idea that you get an actual “warmblooded” horse as a result. A trainer I know described them as bipolar horses: for a while you’d get the cold blooded temperament, but intermittently (and unpredictably) you’d get the hot blood popping out.

[D_BaldStockings]

I will observe that breedism exists, at least on this board: Note the thread in Dressage forum “Do you ride an Off-Breed in Dressage.”

This would imply that E. Warmbloods (of any sort), being purpose bred (whether for Dressage or jumping) are ‘On’ breds.

This rather overlooks the concept that many US breeds were bred ‘For Riding’ for considerably longer than a mere century. -That would be minimum twice the ‘purpose breeding’ timespan of the E.Warmbloods with the possible exclusion of Trakehners…

Is it any wonder that supporters of those US horses of ‘Riding Type’ bred for utility under saddle tend to either be offended or chuckle at having their mounts labeled: Off?

For what it is worth, though TB crosses interest me, I’ve never wanted to ride a draft or draft cross personally, or a Harness type; but many enjoy them.
No one is calling them Hannoverians, and most are not calling them breeds even if they have registries, since they are one-cross hybrids.

‘Olympic Horse Sports’ itself is open to any horse that can do the job; why all the angst?

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8217608]
I will observe that breedism exists, at least on this board: Note the thread in Dressage forum “Do you ride an Off-Breed in Dressage.”

This would imply that E. Warmbloods (of any sort), being purpose bred (whether for Dressage or jumping) are ‘On’ breds.

This rather overlooks the concept that many US breeds were bred ‘For Riding’ for considerably longer than a mere century. -That would be minimum twice the ‘purpose breeding’ timespan of the E.Warmbloods with the possible exclusion of Trakehners…

Is it any wonder that supporters of those US horses of ‘Riding Type’ bred for utility under saddle tend to either be offended or chuckle at having their mounts labeled: Off?[/QUOTE]

As an aside: How many other countries have developed such a WIDE spectrum of riding types. On one end of the spectrum we have the stock breeds with the peanut pushers and the working cow horses, and on the other end we have the park breeds with the Saddlebreds and TWHs.

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8217608]
I will observe that breedism exists, at least on this board: Note the thread in Dressage forum “Do you ride an Off-Breed in Dressage.”

This would imply that E. Warmbloods (of any sort), being purpose bred (whether for Dressage or jumping) are ‘On’ breds.

This rather overlooks the concept that many US breeds were bred ‘For Riding’ for considerably longer than a mere century. -That would be minimum twice the ‘purpose breeding’ timespan of the E.Warmbloods with the possible exclusion of Trakehners…

Is it any wonder that supporters of those US horses of ‘Riding Type’ bred for utility under saddle tend to either be offended or chuckle at having their mounts labeled: Off?

For what it is worth, though TB crosses interest me, I’ve never wanted to ride a draft or draft cross personally, or a Harness type; but many enjoy them.
No one is calling them Hannoverians, and most are not calling them breeds even if they have registries, since they are one-cross hybrids.

‘Olympic Horse Sports’ itself is open to any horse that can do the job; why all the angst?[/QUOTE]

OK, I am just going to admit right off the bat that I am probably going to come off as defensive;-) But I don’t know how else to say this…

I compete pretty regularly in dressage in Region 1 which is pretty competitive. I know plenty of folks competing in ponies, Fjords, Haflingers, Tbs, QHs, etc and do well. No one scoffs at them, no one laughs at them…quite the contrary. Most folks love to watch the Fjords and ponies go!

Now having said that why is when a European WB is purpose bred to excel in a sport it is considered elitist of sorts? A purpose bred cow QH is just that…a purpose bred cow QH. Could I rope cows off my Hanoverian? Sure. Would I win in roping competitions against purpose bred QHs? No. It is the same thing, just for other disciplines…dressage, eventing, jumping, etc. If you have a purpose bred European WB with three quality gaits, good rideability, etc compete against a QH with three quality QH gaits, good readability, etc the WB will most likely will. Does that mean the AA rider on their QH shouldn’t compete? Heck, no! But they also shouldn’t be upset if the other horse wins (all other things being equal).

I also agree that the US has “riding type” horses being bred…morgans are a good example. However, to my knowledge there is no “reputable” US warmblood registry, not associated with a european branch, that has existed for over a 100 years aggressively inspecting, culling, etc to refine a repeatable breeding type. That is what they have done in Europe. To compare a first generation draftXTb to a European WB just shows a lack of knowledge of the dynamics of animal breeding and breed development. Does that mean every European WB is going to be an international star? Of course not, that is not how breeding works. But statistically, through strict breeding rules/bloodline control/inspections/approvals, the population homogeneously holds certain standards and can be reproduced in subsequent generations.

[stoicfish]

If I took my Wb cutting, he would be referred to as an off breed.
Not that the cows care but the breeders who go out of their way to produce a 8th gen cutting horse do. It is a sign of respect and acknowledgment to those people and the horses that are specialists.
It is not a disrespect for those horses that are not purpose bred.

I don’t get to call myself a ballerina because I can wear tights and spin…

[cb06]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8217608]

Is it any wonder that supporters of those US horses of ‘Riding Type’ bred for utility under saddle tend to either be offended or chuckle at having their mounts labeled: Off?[/QUOTE]

I understand the logic behind the disparate comparison of warmbloods to QHs, however those are two extremes of the spectrum. And though the US ‘riding’ breeds (…i.e. the trotting breeds like Morgans and Saddlebreds) do not have the same exact focus as E. Warmblood breeding, they are a much closer comparison…almost two hundred years or so selecting for elegant, athletic, people-oriented, all-purpose riding horses. However, very few of the US versions have been exposed to the quality riding and specialized training beginning at a young age in the sheer numbers/scale Warmbloods regularly enjoy…so they do tend to fall off the radar.
…so, yes…sometimes the ‘purpose-bred’ talk does make me chuckle and sigh, as we have lovely ‘purpose-bred’ breeds developed here in US that are affordable for most, but sadly overlooked and under-utilized…

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=cb06;8217986]
I understand the logic behind the disparate comparison of warmbloods to QHs, however those are two extremes of the spectrum. And though the US ‘riding’ breeds (…i.e. the trotting breeds like Morgans and Saddlebreds) do not have the same exact focus as E. Warmblood breeding, they are a much closer comparison…almost two hundred years or so selecting for elegant, athletic, people-oriented, all-purpose riding horses. However, very few of the US versions have been exposed to the quality riding and specialized training beginning at a young age in the sheer numbers/scale Warmbloods regularly enjoy…so they do tend to fall off the radar.
…so, yes…sometimes the ‘purpose-bred’ talk does make me chuckle and sigh, as we have lovely ‘purpose-bred’ breeds developed here in US that are affordable for most, but sadly overlooked and under-utilized…[/QUOTE]

IMO, it is not to disparate to compare any purpose bred horse. It is not a comparison of type (as I think you are doing), but rather a comparison of use. Also, remember that the Olympic disciplines started in Europe and were brought here. Hence, the breeding of the European WB was for those styles of riding from the start. Here in the US similar “type” riding horses (Morgans and Saddlebreds) have been geared towards uniquely American disciplines of saddle seat and driving. The lack of these horses in dressage, for example, is not a result of “breedism” but rather the historical use of the breeds and the lack of marketing on behalf of those breed registries. If the American Morgan Association (or whatever it is called) wanted to they could certainly begin to heavily market, support and campaign the breed in dressage to increase their popularity as the European registries do for their breeders. Having said that I would think those US Breeds would have to follow a format similar to the KWPN where they having two books: the riding horses and the harness horses. The type and way of movement between the two is quite different to serve the different purposes. And lastly to follow this train of thought comparing European WBs to the US riding type breeds I could try to show my WB in a saddle seat class but I’m sure would lose to a Morgan or Saddlebred (even if it was Totalis) as they have been purpose bred for that discipline.