Breedism and Warmbloods

[vineyridge]

I think the idea that Thoroughbred blood did not make it to Hanover until 1850 is probably wrong. You have to remember that the King of England was also the Elector of Hanover from the early 1714 until 1837, a personal union with the British Crown. This is also the time that the TB was being developed in the UK (and the US), and it would take a huge stretch to imagine that a British crown that was so interested in horses for cavalry at home would not be equally interested in such horses in Hanover. King George II of England founded the Celle stud in 1735, and many stallions were imported for improvement by him and his successors. Wikipedia says that King George IV exported 50 of his personal stallions to stand at Celle before 1828. We know he was involved in racing because QEII uses his racing silks.

Just in Alnok’s pedigree there are two TBs, one foaled in 1818 and one in 1828.

Fling has a German ancestor named Oberon foaled in the 1810s who was a grandson of a British TB foaled in the 1780s. Oberon was a Mecklenburger, which seems to have been heavily used by the Hannoverians. Found another TB in Fling’s ancestry who sired a Mecklenburger with two generations of German TB after the British one foaled in 1780. The British sire was imported in 1786 by Gestut Ivenack. That Mecklenburger (Malcolm) was foaled in 1826 by Gestut Ivenack and stood at Celle.

[cb06]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;8218015]
… And lastly to follow this train of thought comparing European WBs to the US riding type breeds I could try to show my WB in a saddle seat class but I’m sure would lose to a Morgan or Saddlebred (even if it was Totalis) as they have been purpose bred for that discipline.[/QUOTE]
…I suspect with a little specialized training some modern warmbloods (Totilas?) would do quite well in some saddles seat classes…(key word…training).
Blasphemy, I know. :eek: Lol!

[D_BaldStockings]

Totalis sans Edward Gal is less than formerly.

As there is no $$ market for Saddle Seat non-breed specific competition to speak of, you can bet no one is going to train a WB for that any time soon. It is interesting that Friesians are shown ‘both ways’ in the US.

I find it interesting that no one thinks it odd that E. WB have now taken over the Hunter discipline in the ring, since they are not ‘purpose-bred’ for that.
-Apparently the Trainers who supply their clients based on trained horses have something to do with it.

Now if I had the money to hire Edward Gal to ride a nice Saddlebred! … some opinions of OFF might change.
More likely the observers would decide Edward’s amazing talent was responsible for any success an off breed might achieve.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8207062]
They are never a part bred. http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=418975
Those Breed’s are considered part of the Wb improvement breeding stock. They are the breeds that created the modern WB. Like adding a Tb to a QH.[/QUOTE]

They are never LABELED a part-bred. Even the F1 crosses.

In the US most ‘other-registry ancestor stock’ is considered Appendix or half-bred (no matter how many generations of 'upgrading in some cases) The old labeling used to be ‘grade’ or ‘percentage’ TB or Morgan or whatever here in the US.

The inclusion of members of various approved stallions of outside ‘acceptable’ breeds or registries in their breeding pool is a decision by the -I’ll call them Board members of the various individual regional European WB registries. Stallion M may be accepted to sire stock in Registry QQQ but not in Registry LLL.

On the other hand, if the horse’s get do very well competitively, they may very well be approved as sires in the LLL registry if the Board decides.

While registered E WB are never considered (labeled) part-bred, there are definitely upper and lower books, approvals and levels of accomplishment that rank horses within the various registries.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8207721]
Well, I’ll take the one that was written by a German historian who can read the records in the original German. The author has endless documentation of bloodlines, descriptions of the original 12 “Holstein Blacks” and endless descriptions of the foundation stock.

He even lists the stud fee for the stallions at the original Celle (something like 40# of oats).

Obviously history is only as good as the historian doing the research, and his seems pretty solid.[/QUOTE]

From Benny deRuiters
http://www.bennyderuiterstables.com/warmbloods_horses/german-warmblood

“First of all there is the Hanoverian, a German Warmblood horse that is one of great quality. The history of this German Warmblood horse that, like many German warmbloods is a crossbreed, starts in 1735 at the Celle stud. The main goal of breeding the Hanoverian was to produce an agricultural horse that could be used for many purposes. The local mares were quite heavy so Celle used 14 black Holstein horses to breed a German Warmblood horse that also turned out to be a useful horse for the war. In 1815 thoroughbred horses were mixed in. This made the Hanoverian lighter and more suitable for driving and riding and work around the farm. This German Warmblood horse had more courage and toughness. Though, the Hanoverian breeders were very careful with using thoroughbreds because they did not want the Hanoverian Warmblood horse to become too light.”

Please understand that an Agricultural horse (marebase owned by farmers) was NOT a heavy draft horse, but a horse that moved goods to market in front of a cart as part of a team, could pull farm implements and a small plow as needed, serve as a riding or cavalry remount. Robust, sturdy, muscular, vigorous and energetic, docile, healthy and long-lived.

Realizing that the farmer would probably like a heavier type if the feed requirement stayed the same, the ‘powers that decide’, in need of lighter remount, coach and artillery horses supplied lighter sires to direct the future stock to become a lighter horse.

Check out paintings and later photographs of horses in these regions and it is plain to see.

Quite honestly, if a modern E WB were presented to those 18th century-19th century farmers as a sire, they would have done everything to NOT breed to such a horse, since hotter tempered, lighter riding-only type animals were just not useful in their agricultural lifestyle.

Times changed, uses changed. Horses breeding changed.
Are any of the ‘Holstein Blacks’ found as tail male behind today’s Hannoverian pedigrees?

[D_BaldStockings]

some WW1 German cavalry pics
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--f2UYNRWl8A/VKb91AQry4I/AAAAAAAACBQ/A9zrXq8_64s/s1600/2%2BAH%2BCavalry.jpg
http://www.deschenhof.de/wilhelm1.jpg
http://warhorsegazette.blogspot.com/2011_09_01_archive.html
http://www.voltansshed.com/stuff/boxer/boxer05.jpg

WW2
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5131/5419582463_6a2b402190_o.jpg

Very interesting light types, even considering the near famine conditions of wartime.

Such a shame the tremendous carnage of horse and man during the first half of the 20th century; amazing what Europeans have accomplished from the ruins.

[Blume_Farm]

Actually that is not completely true. Yes, an F1 WBXTb is branded with that WB registry and holds full papers (not half breed papers). However, at least in the Hannoveraner Verband, first generation HanoXTb mares are shown as half breeds in in-hand classes (they are called half blood mares). So they are recognized as such. When comparing WBXTb F1 to QHXTb F1 or Morgan, or whatever is not apples to apples when using the term “half bred”. A European WB (minus the Trak) is not considered a “pure breed”, but instead is a constantly developing “type” using the Tb, AA, Arab as improvement blood. The QH or Morgan is considered a “pure breed” and hence when you breed one of them to a Tb they will use different terminology to denote that…hence, half breed.

Regarding WB in the hunter ring. There is no breed purpose bred for hunters. When I was a kid it was OTTB as they were plentiful. Now it is the WB or WB/Tb. Often dressage bred WBs offer the type of movement desired in todays hunter market. Styles change all the time. They movement we see in dressage horses today is not what you saw 20 years ago. The style of hunters has changed as well.

Again, there is an easy way to increase the popularity of any given breed into a discipline. Breed them, market them and have success with them. If the QH could jump a 6’ course in quick time I can guarantee they would be the hot breed for jumpers. If the Morgan horse could move like an UL dressage WB horse Charlotte Dujardin would be riding one in the Olympics. If mules were winning at the Rolex*** that is what would be ridden. People want to ride on a “purpose bred” animal even if they are not going to the Olympics or Rolex.

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8220304]
They are never LABELED a part-bred. Even the F1 crosses.

In the US most ‘other-registry ancestor stock’ is considered Appendix or half-bred (no matter how many generations of 'upgrading in some cases) The old labeling used to be ‘grade’ or ‘percentage’ TB or Morgan or whatever here in the US.

The inclusion of members of various approved stallions of outside ‘acceptable’ breeds or registries in their breeding pool is a decision by the -I’ll call them Board members of the various individual regional European WB registries. Stallion M may be accepted to sire stock in Registry QQQ but not in Registry LLL.

On the other hand, if the horse’s get do very well competitively, they may very well be approved as sires in the LLL registry if the Board decides.

While registered E WB are never considered (labeled) part-bred, there are definitely upper and lower books, approvals and levels of accomplishment that rank horses within the various registries.[/QUOTE]

[Cumano]

If mules were winning at the Rolex*** that is what would be ridden.

I would tend to think that their is some nebulous regulation somwhere making it mandatory to actualy ride a horse in equestrian sports…:winkgrin:

[Go_Fish]

@D_BaldStockings;8220255

WB have now taken over the Hunter discipline in the ring, since they are not ‘purpose-bred’ for that.

Of course they are, and have been in this country for quite some time. My oldest WB “hunter” that I purposely bred for that discipline is 13 this year. And, I was VERY late to the party. A lot of breeders in my neck of the woods have been breeding WBs for the hunter ring for decades.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;8220429]
Often dressage bred WBs offer the type of movement desired in todays hunter market. [/QUOTE]

Not where I’m from, they don’t.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;8220429]

Again, there is an easy way to increase the popularity of any given breed into a discipline. Breed them, market them and have success with them. If the QH could jump a 6’ course in quick time I can guarantee they would be the hot breed for jumpers. If the Morgan horse could move like an UL dressage WB horse Charlotte Dujardin would be riding one in the Olympics. If mules were winning at the Rolex*** that is what would be ridden. People want to ride on a “purpose bred” animal even if they are not going to the Olympics or Rolex.[/QUOTE]

Of course mules are excluded from Dressage shows by rule since they are not Horses.

Breeds outside of the WBFSH are not likely to be selected for an additional reason, their is no historical ranking for their accomplishments in Sport. Therefore one can’t ‘expect’ or '‘predict’ that the prospect in front of them will be worth the time and $ of training based on records of near relatives.

Top level trainers must make a profit and if non-WB doesn’t hit the top of Sport there is no secondary market of buyers pre-conditioned to want a Sport XX breed even from a top trainer at a good enough price.

These breeds do want to remain pedigree closed and refer all decision-making in the breeding shed to the owners as to mate selection. They are not going to join the WBFS.
And there are still some breeders would prefer their horses that are unsuccessful at their own specific discipline vanish into paperless anonymity rather than represent their breed at an Olympic Discipline - Horse people!

This is not sour grapes; just saying these are different types of registries with differing outlooks and existing in different cultures. Saying a horse isn’t valuable as an XX without also looking at the culture surrounding XX as a likely cause and ongoing ‘wall to climb’ would be unrealistic.

The US bred E WB pedigreed horse has a much more difficult entry into upper level Sport than his European counterpart as well.

Oops, this was meant for GoFish:
By the way, I commend you as a breeder of fine Hunters, that is a great accomplishment and shows long term dedication, determination and a good eye for a horse.

[D_BaldStockings]

And let me comment that this E WB pedigree shows a LOT of ‘improving’, going all the way back to 1917 before there may be a sire that is not TB.

http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/411166

I’ve never seen a QH with that much TB ancestry, but there is the future.

http://www.horsesinternational.com/sport/ingrid-klimke-announced-braxxis-farewell/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=Ingrid

All credit to the Hanoverian…
Personally I’m beginning to think I’d like the horse referred to by the Breeder, not the regional registry. I don’t understand why the horse’s foaling location is vital to it’s future performance.

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8220489]
Not where I’m from, they don’t.[/QUOTE]

Here are some WB stallions that I know of producing successful offspring in the hunter ring…all with dressage lines. They tend to throw the flatter kneed movement desirable in the hunter ring. True, I am not involved in the hunter world, but have friends that are. The stallions listed below they tend to really like for their versatility at lower level dressage, hunter eq classes and up to the 3’3" level. They also tend to throw “pretty”.

http://www.hphanoverians.com/furst-impression.html

http://www.bridlewoodhanoverians.com/dacaprio.php

http://www.pangaeafarm.com/harvardprogeny.html

http://woodslanefarm.com/stallions/regazzoni-hanoverian-stallion

And then of course there is the debatable Redwine:)

[Manni01]

And please don’t forget the hannovarian racehorses… They are also included in the Hanoverian registry and there have a lot of TB in them. When I was young some of that breeding stock could be found behind in some Auction horses in Verden. No Idea if thats still the case.

[ladyj79]

Many of the “dressage bred” stallions producing successful hunters are not producing successful dressage horses. Because the movement simply isn’t there.

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8220523]
Of course mules are excluded from Dressage shows by rule since they are not Horses.

<SNIP>[/QUOTE]

Not true
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn6pSo6ZNZQ

[D_BaldStockings]

Looks as though I expanded a rule from the USDF Breeders Championship Series for New Competitors

"Are ponies eligible to compete? Are mules eligible?

A horse or pony of any height may compete. Mules are not eligible to compete. "

I thought this was in reaction to Laura, I’ll research further.

http://www.usdf.org/faqs/USDFBCcompetitor.asp

[MidnightWriter]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8220443]
I would tend to think that their is some nebulous regulation somwhere making it mandatory to actualy ride a horse in equestrian sports…:winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

Why? A mule is an equine, so a person riding a mule is an equestrian.

I am not surprised that mules are not eligible to compete in any competition with the word “Breeders” in its name since mules are sterile.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=MidnightWriter;8221513]
Why? A mule is an equine, so a person riding a mule is an equestrian.

I am not surprised that mules are not eligible to compete in any competition with the word “Breeders” in its name since mules are sterile.[/QUOTE]

I was just joking, I did not check. I remain a little surprised that a person showing in equestrian sports do not have to ride an actual horse. But lets be honnest, in the classical disciplines, I don’t think riding a mule against horses can exactly be considered an unfair advantage…

[D_BaldStockings]

…and it looks like I am wrong on Mules eligible for USDF shows: they are!

Local circuit shows can be another matter and make their own rules.

I Couldn’t find a USEF rule that defines ‘horse’ as any equine, or as to include mules and donkeys, so I’m not sure exactly where it is addressed in the book.

Good to see Open competitions in all sports.