Breedism and Warmbloods

[D_BaldStockings]

USEF GR126 Horse
“…
2. In all levels of all Federation licensed Driving and Endurance Competitions and in the case of any other Federation Rule as it relates to the Driving or Endurance disciplines as the context permits it, the term “horse” shall also include a mule. See DC Annex 9, EN102.1.
Mules are also eligible to compete in dressage classes with the exception of:
1. USEF Championships, USEF qualifying and selection trials, and observation classes,
2. any other classes designated as qualifying or selection classes for international or international high performance competition, and
3. championships where such participation is prohibited in the championship selection procedures. See DR119.1.
…”

my bolding

[Cumano]

Now let see if this sparks a trend in breeders to launch sport mules breeding programs…

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8221604]
Now let see if this sparks a trend in breeders to launch sport mules breeding programs…[/QUOTE]

They’d be worth money only if they are foaled in Europe - LOL.

And they do take a VERY good trainer/rider.
And since they wouldn’t be WBFSH ranked, and could NEVER be Warmblood, that would tank the value.

Good that they are allowed to compete, though.

[Cranberry]

There is a USDF all breeds award for mules. I’ve seen quite a few photos and videos of mules doing dressage tests; I’m surprised this isn’t widely know.

[D_BaldStockings]

I think I got the impression because they are not allowed in Eventing, Show Jumping or Hunter divisions of USEF; and I don’t frequent the Dressage shows anymore.

Many people don’t know much about mules; just as many don’t know much about breeds of horses not their particular flavor.

[Graymaresrule]

FWIW http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?470952-Mule-going-PSG-at-Woodside-this-weekend-anyone-else-showing

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8222165]
I think I got the impression because they are not allowed in Eventing, Show Jumping or Hunter divisions of USEF; and I don’t frequent the Dressage shows anymore.

Many people don’t know much about mules; just as many don’t know much about breeds of horses not their particular flavor.[/QUOTE]

They were not allowed in dressage shows until a few years back (maybe 8 years?) - a few mule riders (who had been showing at schooling shows) petitioned and pushed for the rule change. I was scribing for a judge just after the rule change, and she was one who was AGAINST allowing the mules in, and one of the mule advocates was showing - oh, the glares that went back and forth at the final salute:D

Having said that - I’ve been at a few shows with mules, and they ARE disconcerting to some of the horses. I also use to ride with a trainer who gave lessons to a mule rider - and I always had to have my lesson right after hers since my horse was the only one in the barn who would NOT freak out over the mule. So there is that to consider… OTOH, they really are cute, hahaha…

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8221628]
They’d be worth money only if they are foaled in Europe - LOL.

And they do take a VERY good trainer/rider.
And since they wouldn’t be WBFSH ranked, and could NEVER be Warmblood, that would tank the value.

Good that they are allowed to compete, though.[/QUOTE]

LOL, WBFSH is not just Warmbloods. There are quite a few of Irish Draught descent who are ranked, like Flexible

[Dressagelvr]

Kyzteke, you are my hero.

Anyone looking for a good education on warmblood breeding, The making of the modern warmblood is anothee excellent source.

America has spent most of its breeding resources on horses who are not bred for today’s sport.

There simply isn’t enough QC in our WB breeding efforts and for those reasons, people will probably always have to rely on Europe if they want the highest level of sport.

The other thing that people never talk about is how unfair it can be to some horses to force them to do work that simply doesn’t match their bodies and genes.

Imagine an UL e bred dressage horse on a real endurance ride. That horse, even with similar conditioning will struggle more than an Arab.

Neither the EWB nor the Arab is intrinsically better that the other, but if I’m riding endurance, I want to be on the Arab.

Why is it so hard for people to think that the other way.

You may want to ride your Mule dressage, but I can promise you that your mule would rather be elsewhere. And that should count for something.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;8222847]
LOL, WBFSH is not just Warmbloods. There are quite a few of Irish Draught descent who are ranked, like Flexible[/QUOTE]

ISH or Irish Sporthorse is a member registry. Only member registries have their horses (and approved outcross sires) Ranked and Archived in their databases.

http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/546009

Flexible is an ISH.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8222970]
Kyzteke, you are my hero.

Anyone looking for a good education on warmblood breeding, The making of the modern warmblood is anothee excellent source.

America has spent most of its breeding resources on horses who are not bred for today’s sport.

There simply isn’t enough QC in our WB breeding efforts and for those reasons, people will probably always have to rely on Europe if they want the highest level of sport.

The other thing that people never talk about is how unfair it can be to some horses to force them to do work that simply doesn’t match their bodies and genes.

Imagine an UL e bred dressage horse on a real endurance ride. That horse, even with similar conditioning will struggle more than an Arab.

Neither the EWB nor the Arab is intrinsically better that the other, but if I’m riding endurance, I want to be on the Arab.

Why is it so hard for people to think that the other way.

You may want to ride your Mule dressage, but I can promise you that your mule would rather be elsewhere. And that should count for something.[/QUOTE]

What is an UL e bred dressage horse? I am translating as Upper Level European-Bred dressage horse?

I have seen more than a few of those that ‘would rather be somewhere else’ as you put it. Shorter endurance rides in Northern climates where the body volume and evaporation for heat loss weren’t problematic, and if the UL Dressage horse was higher % Trak, TB or Arab, and lighter built and under 16hh might be just the ticket for their niche enjoyment.

I don’t feel that dressage is quite the fitness question for horses that endurance is, but I do get your point.
On the other hand, if you have a flashy moving, very biddable, uphill built horse of body type similar to a WB and the horse enjoys the work, you have an excellent trainer (good luck with that one) and a few years to invest, I feel this might be a good use of that not-a-UL e bred American Horse.

Again, dressage is not my ‘thing’ as it is judged today, and since I am not into micromanagement to enjoy my horse(s).
It is a discipline that takes much devotion of time and ongoing learning -kudos to those who work at it.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8222970]

America has spent most of its breeding resources on horses who are not bred for today’s sport.

There simply isn’t enough QC in our WB breeding efforts and for those reasons, people will probably always have to rely on Europe if they want the highest level of sport.

The other thing that people never talk about is how unfair it can be to some horses to force them to do work that simply doesn’t match their bodies and genes.

Imagine an UL e bred dressage horse on a real endurance ride. That horse, even with similar conditioning will struggle more than an Arab.

Neither the EWB nor the Arab is intrinsically better that the other, but if I’m riding endurance, I want to be on the Arab.

Why is it so hard for people to think that the other way.

You may want to ride your Mule dressage, but I can promise you that your mule would rather be elsewhere. And that should count for something.[/QUOTE]

So, we should stick with the horses originally bred for dressage? Wouldn’t that be the Lippizan?

I guess I disagree with so much in your post. First of all - there are some high quality horses bred in the US. But a big difference here - we don’t cull the way they do in Europe. Slaughter is illegal in most states - so the horses who are not super stars still end up alive and ridden.

And if you are implying that anything that is NOT a WB will be unhappy with dressage - that simply isn’t so. And I can think of MANY WBs (including quite a few imports) who are miserable in it and would much rather be anyplace else (in some cases, anyplace without a rider). And I’ve seen plenty of non-WBs who are very happy in their jobs, and doing well in dressage.

This kind of thread shows how much Breedism does exist. Especially in dressage. It seems a non-WB is much more accepted in other disciplines - I see plenty of people doing well in eventing, hunters, jumpers with non-WBs. Half the time, we don’t even know WHAT the horse is (or who it is, names get changes more often in those disciplines).

Most riders will never get to the FEI levels - they are better off with a horse that is a bit less complicated - and easier to sit, smaller and easier to handle, less expensive, etc. The Warmblood is not the mount for every rider.

[laskiblue]

@TrotTrotPumpkn;8203573

If you QH, draft cross, TB, whatever puts in a handy round like this then you can win too: http://youtu.be/jSvHRx_tKmA

Wow, the rider and horse made it look so easy and natural. Lovely round.

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;8222847]
LOL, WBFSH is not just Warmbloods. There are quite a few of Irish Draught descent who are ranked, like Flexible[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8223086]ISH or Irish Sporthorse is a member registry. Only member registries have their horses (and approved outcross sires) Ranked and Archived in their databases.

http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/546009

Flexible is an ISH.[/QUOTE]
Indeed he is, but neither a Warmblood nor, please god, a warmblood.

Also Mr Medicott, among others

[Sunflower]

I think it is a mistake to think every European registry of warmblood horses has as its goal only elite athletes. The KWPN Registry is very clear that it includes the every day riding horse as an important part of its registry. http://www.kwpn.org/kwpn/

“However, the KWPN does not focus exclusively on world-class sport; after all, most riders do not have the ambition or opportunity to actively participate in equestrian sports as professionals. Therefore, the KWPN also considers facilitation of suitable matches between the large population of amateur owners and their horses a very important task.”

And oh yes, without apology, they own the farm workhorse origins of the horses in their registry…! “With the original farm workhorse as the starting point, four different breeding directions emerged over the years, each with its own breeding goal and breeding council.”

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;8224338]
Indeed he is, but neither a Warmblood nor, please god, a warmblood.

Also Mr Medicott, among others[/QUOTE]

by that standard, few of the popular European Warmbloods (80% of the registries) are Warmbloods, since the word does not appear in their registry names. That would include Holstein, Hanoverian, Oldenburg…

“The main composite breeds of the Irish Sport Horse are the Irish Draught Horse and the Thoroughbred. There is also a considerable amount of cross breeding with continental warmbloods breed in the Irish Sport Horse Studbook.”
http://www.horsesportireland.ie/breeding/irish-sport-horse-studbook/

ISH are bred for Sport from an originally heavier stock. Used to be TB X; now including some Holstein, Selle Francais and Kwpn. - kinda ‘Warmblood’, and the UK is Europe, even if not Continental.

It is perhaps a US labeling of Sporthorse registries to call them E Warmblood, as they don’t label themselves that way.

[D_BaldStockings]

ISH Arraghbeg Clover has a 2nd dam that is Kwpn, for Example

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10978741

[D_BaldStockings]

Paulank Brockagh 's topline has Galoubet A as grandsire.

http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/363163

[Blume_Farm]

I don’t use the term European warmblood normally, and I believe most folks don’t either. It is being used in this thread to differentiate between a breed type that descends from Europe (Hano, Old, Hol, etc) and the use of the word warmblood in the US to denote a draftXTb cross. The words/ terminology are meaningless as long as everyone understands what folks are referring to and the differences between the breeds, history of the breeds and the genetic control of the breeds.

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8226553]
by that standard, few of the popular European Warmbloods (80% of the registries) are Warmbloods, since the word does not appear in their registry names. That would include Holstein, Hanoverian, Oldenburg…

“The main composite breeds of the Irish Sport Horse are the Irish Draught Horse and the Thoroughbred. There is also a considerable amount of cross breeding with continental warmbloods breed in the Irish Sport Horse Studbook.”
http://www.horsesportireland.ie/breeding/irish-sport-horse-studbook/

ISH are bred for Sport from an originally heavier stock. Used to be TB X; now including some Holstein, Selle Francais and Kwpn. - kinda ‘Warmblood’, and the UK is Europe, even if not Continental.

It is perhaps a US labeling of Sporthorse registries to call them E Warmblood, as they don’t label themselves that way.[/QUOTE]

[cloudyandcallie]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8221604]
Now let see if this sparks a trend in breeders to launch sport mules breeding programs…[/QUOTE]

Hey, I did not learn about racing mules until I joined Coth. And those are 1/2 TB and beautiful and fast.

I have no problem with mules or any other equine in dressage or jumping. The horse or mule who performs best in dressage should win. I wonder if anyone has bred a mammoth jack to a good dressage wb mare? Not Poesie, of course, but a good wb mare with good hock action? That would be interesting to see.

I’ve always been told that mules were good jumpers. But the only mules I knew were those who were big and slow and belonging to my great uncle. i rode them but they were not fast enough. And my great grandfather had mules, again big and slow, who pulled his wagon on the farm.

I didn’t think that the book “The making of the modern warmblood” is as good as some of the european wb books I’ve purchased. The method of breeding the warmbloods in europe for the registries there seems to be the best method with the results being the test of “best.” Until the books are closed in the registries, warmbloods in europe will not be breeds. In America, things are different. My european warmblood is not related to many horses in other registries there. Nor is my domestic trakehner related to many warmbloods in germany (except trakehners) outside of some trakehners from whence she descended.

The argument will go on and on. Breed or registry, european or American, whatever. Let the best horse(s) (or mules) win.