Breedism and Warmbloods

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8226553]
by that standard, few of the popular European Warmbloods (80% of the registries) are Warmbloods, since the word does not appear in their registry names. That would include Holstein, Hanoverian, Oldenburg…

“The main composite breeds of the Irish Sport Horse are the Irish Draught Horse and the Thoroughbred. There is also a considerable amount of cross breeding with continental warmbloods breed in the Irish Sport Horse Studbook.”
http://www.horsesportireland.ie/breeding/irish-sport-horse-studbook/

ISH are bred for Sport from an originally heavier stock. Used to be TB X; now including some Holstein, Selle Francais and Kwpn. - kinda ‘Warmblood’, and the UK is Europe, even if not Continental.

It is perhaps a US labeling of Sporthorse registries to call them E Warmblood, as they don’t label themselves that way.[/QUOTE]

Pepsi and Coke dropped cola from their name. Everyone knows it is a cola and they are branding their company.
If you go there, they refer to the horse as a Warmblut. It is just everyone knows that and is more worried about the competitive aspect of the registries.

[vineyridge]

The European Sporthorse is a very modern creation. The horses have only been purpose bred for sport for about 50 years. So their long history as carriage horses, farm horses, cannon pullers and cavalry horses has little or nothing to do with sport quality. If the French and Germans (and all the other WB breeding nations) can produce the current horses, so can any other nation with enough drive, persistence and financial support.

[D_BaldStockings]

Viney,
I believe that Trainers and Riders are what is needed more than special breeding programs, personally.

The ‘purpose-bred’ Sporthorses in North America have a tougher time finding affordable training; realistic goal and time-dependent programs that produce results and finding competent riders.

Competent has nothing to do with ‘being able to afford to buy’. Quality horses bought by intermediate riders in average training barns wanting to ride at their level are not going to make it to the top of anything.

Few horses in the US are sponsored by wealthy owners for top riders; those that are have proven themselves in Sport = circular problem.

The very fact that people can take random horses of unknown or non-Sport ancestry but likely looks and temperament -and succeed- leads one to believe the genetics are likely there already, just waiting for a trainer to develop them.

Couple that with the Anti-breeder sentiment towards non-Sport, non-breed specific discipline breeders; the lack of viable market for those that don’t ‘make the grade’ and the Breedism of buyers and Trainers regarding started prospects and it is difficult to have a viable breeding effort with non European WB ancestry.

The Butts bred horses in Europe are very popular, and are essentially TB. Yet the ‘TB can’t do the job’ mindset is pervasive in North America.

Apparently one must have the breeding farm in Europe to succeed…

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8227059]
Pepsi and Coke dropped cola from their name. Everyone knows it is a cola and they are branding their company.
If you go there, they refer to the horse as a Warmblut. It is just everyone knows that and is more worried about the competitive aspect of the registries.[/QUOTE]

I still say you are on target with ‘more worried about the competitive aspect of the registries’. That is the meat of the matter, since value in Sport is the key.

If a horse has value in Top Sport and happens to be registered American Warmblood then there can be no argument that it is not ‘warmblood’ whether one likes the horse or not. The registry name is warmblood and no one else has a patent on the name.

It might not be European ancestry. Or it could be. One simply doesn’t know without a pedigree. It isn’t bred in Europe.

There are many ‘warmbloods’, ‘Warmbloods’, and ‘European Warmbloods’ out there with meh value as Sporthorses.

The Coca-Cola company has not dropped cola from their name… they have added Coke and various other products.
http://www.coca-colacompany.com/brands/the-coca-cola-company

[Blume_Farm]

Of course if someone has a spectacular individual no one cares about the breed. Rusty was a great example of that in the dressage arena. However, we are not talking individuals, we are talking populations as a whole. I would feel very secure in saying the Hanoverian breed generates many more dressage suitable horses, be it AA or Pro, than the AWS that accepts all sorts of genetics into their registry. And I say that not just in sheer numbers put as a percentage of the population (ie; a greater % of Hanoverians will be suitable as dressage mounts than a % of AWS). I do not say this to be elitist, as I am sure many anti-E WB folks will feel, but rather just as a show of what generations of selective breeding has accomplished.

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8227891]
I still say you are on target with ‘more worried about the competitive aspect of the registries’. That is the meat of the matter, since value in Sport is the key.

If a horse has value in Top Sport and happens to be registered American Warmblood then there can be no argument that it is not ‘warmblood’ whether one likes the horse or not. The registry name is warmblood and no one else has a patent on the name.

It might not be European ancestry. Or it could be. One simply doesn’t know without a pedigree. It isn’t bred in Europe.

There are many ‘warmbloods’, ‘Warmbloods’, and ‘European Warmbloods’ out there with meh value as Sporthorses.

The Coca-Cola company has not dropped cola from their name… they have added Coke and various other products.
http://www.coca-colacompany.com/brands/the-coca-cola-company[/QUOTE]

[ladyj79]

Another issue is when N. American breeders breed the same bloodlines as europeans, they think each of those is a top TOP sport prospect, because we breed far fewer than the Europeans. They cull quite harshly, some go to slaughter, but most go to the low end of the market. Some of these low end get sold to the US, some of the high end get sold to the US, but they still have a lot more and prune more judiciously. We have fewer, so we think too many of them are better than they are, inflating perceptions as well as the market.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;8228053]
Of course if someone has a spectacular individual no one cares about the breed. Rusty was a great example of that in the dressage arena. However, we are not talking individuals, we are talking populations as a whole. I would feel very secure in saying the Hanoverian breed generates many more dressage suitable horses, be it AA or Pro, than the AWS that accepts all sorts of genetics into their registry. And I say that not just in sheer numbers put as a percentage of the population (ie; a greater % of Hanoverians will be suitable as dressage mounts than a % of AWS). I do not say this to be elitist, as I am sure many anti-E WB folks will feel, but rather just as a show of what generations of selective breeding has accomplished.[/QUOTE]

Why is it a good idea to cross jumper-bred horses into a Dressage line, then?
I’ll answer: to improve the quickness and hind end.

But think about it; that is taking a horse NOT proven in discipline MM to improve horses bred for generations to do MM. This knocks ‘Generations of breeding for discipline MM’ out of the water.

The same could be said for a TB cross, yet there are more than a few successes from a cross where the TB has obviously not been bred for discipline MM.

Don’t get me wrong. The Hanoverian as a population/registry is most often tested and trained for Dressage and there are proven top horses there (when coupled with top riders and trainers).

Individual breeders do not usually work with populations; they work with THIS MARE they have chosen…

Hopefully one with a performance record.
If it is KWPN or AWS one doesn’t know the breeding from the registry name; it is pre-judging to dismiss a PERFORMING individual because of the registry.

[D_BaldStockings]

Now I am sounding ANTI-

I’m not.

I attempt to be pro any good horse. And meh the proven meh ones. The breeder with a horse of ZZ registry that dismisses horses of bloodlines that occur in their own horse, for instance TB, or non-ZZ E. Warmblood to my way of thinking is missing key parts of their breeding equation. Their horse is a good one because of all it’s ancestry, not just their registry name.

The breeder that adds ‘outside’ genes for no performance benefit is not helping their stock become performers.

If one can train without adding outside genes and achieve great performance, then there is nothing wrong with choosing not to go beyond their known lines. Even if other lines in the registry are non-performers.

[Blume_Farm]

I am not quite sure your point. True, adding “jumper blood” to a dressage blooded horse is done to add jump in the canter. However, specialized breeding like this is relatively new and jumper blood has always been found in dressage bred horses. Sandro Hit is a perfect example. Having said that not all jumper bred horses will benefit the dressage horse. Contender, yes. Stakkato, no. But all these horses are of the same population, same type, same genetics. That is quite different than say adding a barrel bred QH for a quick hindleg.

Regarding the TB, the breed is used as an improvement breed within the E. WB so of course there will be many successful crosses. Depending on who you speak with, the future importance of the Tb is in question. Do we still need them or not in the E.WB? I do not know the answer to that, and no one else does either BTW. Only future generations and assessment of that stock will answer that question.

It is true the Hanoverian breed has been slanted to the dressage horse in the past. They recognize that and in recent history are trying to change that by in the 80s approving Holsteiners and starting the jumper breeding program. They have made great strides through selective breeding and stallion/ mare selection.

I disagree that a mare owner does not work with populations. Yes, I have just my broodmare, but I know her genetics. I know her sisters. I know what her mother, grandmother, cousins have produced. I know what her stallion cousins have produced. I KNOW her generations. Then to expand upon just her immediate family lineage I know what Davignon produces (or doesn’t produce), I know what Rotspon produces. That IS the beauty of such bloodline knowledge. I can make more educated breeding decisions. Does that mean I am going to produce the next Velegro? No, but wish it did:-). But it does mean that statistically speaking I have a greater chance of producing something that will be appropriate for its intended use.

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8228565]
Why is it a good idea to cross jumper-bred horses into a Dressage line, then?
I’ll answer: to improve the quickness and hind end.

But think about it; that is taking a horse NOT proven in discipline MM to improve horses bred for generations to do MM. This knocks ‘Generations of breeding for discipline MM’ out of the water.

The same could be said for a TB cross, yet there are more than a few successes from a cross where the TB has obviously not been bred for discipline MM.

Don’t get me wrong. The Hanoverian as a population/registry is most often tested and trained for Dressage and there are proven top horses there (when coupled with top riders and trainers).

Individual breeders do not usually work with populations; they work with THIS MARE they have chosen…

Hopefully one with a performance record.
If it is KWPN or AWS one doesn’t know the breeding from the registry name; it is pre-judging to dismiss a PERFORMING individual because of the registry.[/QUOTE]

[Graymaresrule]

D

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8226553]
by that standard, few of the popular European Warmbloods (80% of the registries) are Warmbloods, since the word does not appear in their registry names. That would include Holstein, Hanoverian, Oldenburg…

“The main composite breeds of the Irish Sport Horse are the Irish Draught Horse and the Thoroughbred. There is also a considerable amount of cross breeding with continental warmbloods breed in the Irish Sport Horse Studbook.”
http://www.horsesportireland.ie/breeding/irish-sport-horse-studbook/

ISH are bred for Sport from an originally heavier stock. Used to be TB X; now including some Holstein, Selle Francais and Kwpn. - kinda ‘Warmblood’, and the UK is Europe, even if not Continental.

It is perhaps a US labeling of Sporthorse registries to call them E Warmblood, as they don’t label themselves that way.[/QUOTE]
What does he .UK have to do with Irish horses?
While unfortunately they’re lumped together in one registry there is a difference between IDxs and continental wbs or WBs bred in the Irish Republic.
There was an attempt to form an Irish wb registry but I don’t know what became off it.
Most people with IDs or IDxs would really rather not call them wbs. Some would even call it an insult

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8227139]
The European Sporthorse is a very modern creation. The horses have only been purpose bred for sport for about 50 years. So their long history as carriage horses, farm horses, cannon pullers and cavalry horses has little or nothing to do with sport quality. If the French and Germans (and all the other WB breeding nations) can produce the current horses, so can any other nation with enough drive, persistence and financial support.[/QUOTE]

Well, except Wb’s were singled out and purpose bred for Calvary and the Olympic sports also derived from Calvary exercises. So I do not think it is fair to say that 50 years ago they were just a farm horse and nothing to do with O. sport.
The Traks were also used as a farm horse, war horse, wagon horse and used as food. None of those uses detract from the reason they were segregated and bred by the King for a Calvary mount originally.

[Cumano]

If one can train without adding outside genes and achieve great performance, then there is nothing wrong with choosing not to go beyond their known lines. Even if other lines in the registry are non-performers.

I think your resoning is good if you look at it from a sport perspective. However, from my breeder’s point of view, I do not agree.

Looking at a fully grown horse when looking for a competitor, you look at what you have. Genetics can give you insight on its trainability, its work ethic, its health etc. But regarding athetism, what you see is pretty much what you get. That is why, usualy, riders and trainers will not care as much on the breed, studbook or even pedigree of an exceptional horse.

However, when making breeding decisions, I do not think in terms of what that specific individual has done or can do, I think in terms of what it can produce and how consistently it can do it. Of course performances (its own or those of other horses in its lines) are good insights, but it is not all. Looking at a good pedigree, I can have an idea of what a line gives, at what frequency, and how it is best crossed. This is the only tool I have to base my decisions on. This is why breeders of sport horses will prefer breeding with horses from bloodlines that are well established and well proven in sport and in the breeding shed, for the specific disciplin he or she is breeding for. What you call E Warmbloods are the only true registries that have been producing specificaly bred horses for those disciplines. Of course every now and then, a paint horse will pop out in the 1m45, or a Morgan will show up to PSG. But they will most likely have no performance history in their bloodlines, I would be unable to have an idea of how he will transmit the traits that allowed them to perform and I have a much greater risk of ending with a half morgan or an appendix that is neither a sport horse nor a quality horse for the Morgan/Paint usual disciplines.

When taking breeding decisions, we only have a goal and a plan, we do not have the horse to evaluate it. That is the maine difference between breeding and scouting for young horses.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8228779]
Well, except Wb’s were singled out and purpose bred for Calvary and the Olympic sports also derived from Calvary exercises. So I do not think it is fair to say that 50 years ago they were just a farm horse and nothing to do with O. sport.
The Traks were also used as a farm horse, war horse, wagon horse and used as food. None of those uses detract from the reason they were segregated and bred by the King for a Calvary mount originally.[/QUOTE]

But in the US, Morgans were specifically selected for the Cavalry, so why aren’t they accepted in the sport world? And in ancient war, the Friesian was the breed of choice, so why not Friesians? I could go on and on. Many breeds morph based on market needs - that is marketing.

No one questions that the Warmblood is the horse of choice if you want to get to the Olympics (and probably the Dutch WB for dressage, looking at the most recent international competitions), but for the typical US rider, a Morgan, a Friesian, a PRE, or one of many other breeds and crosses may be just as valid.

AND many breeders are purpose breeding for dressage within those registries - so the entire BREED may not be purpose bred, but individual breeders are breeding appropriate horses for sport. That may be less expensive, less complicated, lower maintenance, a more suitable horse for many riders.

And some of these horses ARE quite capable of FEI work. D Bald makes a good point - a big part of a horse’s success is training. An example that I’ve witnessed - a very talented young trainer is now riding a Gypsy. Why? Because her good friend bought a Gypsy. And with good training, that Gypsy is now showing PSG - and beating many Warmbloods. Is she an Olympic prospect? No, of course not, but neither are most Warmbloods. My point - most horses don’t get the good training. With the good training - many more of these non-EWB horses would be competitive.

I have no problems with Warmbloods as a collective group of horses - I’ve owned several. But they are not the horse for every rider, and I see far too many people buy them because, well, the Warmblood studbooks are excellent at marketing. And have convinced the world that you NEED a Warmblood to participate in Dressage, Jumpers, etc. It is a brilliant marketing process - but like many marketing campaigns, it is not entirely true. However, a small company (registry, group of breeders, etc) can’t fight it - they don’t have the money, the power, the glossy ads. And as a result, many people pay too much for a horse they can’t ride. And we continue to see that marketing power - more emphasis on big gaits, less emphasis on training. Young Horse classes with even MORE emphasis on big gaits. And of course, the term Warmblood - I’m waiting for it to be trademarked:winkgrin:

[Graymaresrule]

If anyone is interested in Irish Draughts here are some of my favorites
http://www.cappastud.com/

in the UK
http://www.avantistud.com/
and http://www.belltowerstud.com/

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;8228656]
D
What does he .UK have to do with Irish horses?
While unfortunately they’re lumped together in one registry there is a difference between IDxs and continental wbs or WBs bred in the Irish Republic.
There was an attempt to form an Irish wb registry but I don’t know what became off it.
Most people with IDs or IDxs would really rather not call them wbs. Some would even call it an insult[/QUOTE]

And OOPS! I was alive before Ireland split the UK, sorry for the error -unforgivable.
That doesn’t make Ireland not a part of Europe, even if they are not continental, however.

Grand horses, even if a tad heavy for my taste.
My point was that as a member registry of WBFSH they are viewed as opening the registry to other than TB and ISD horses as approved breeding stock, similar to other Sport registries which are ‘grouped’ as European Warmblood AKA the Gold standard according to some contestants who exhibit Breedism by their condescending attitude to their less fortunately mounted competition in the ring.

Personally, I am rather thick skinned about it all and look for a good performance.

If I know the bloodlines and families of my non-WB breed and what traits they produce and how to cross them, is it smarter to attempt to learn in detail a completely different pool of horses, most of which are overseas?
Assuming I already have an athletic, trainable horse with good ability in what some might think a complementary discipline?

Maybe I should not limit myself to an Olympic discipline specialty ‘breed’ in a country where there is no secondary market for the didn’t-make-the-cut horse.

If I truly believed that a Dressage horse couldn’t be a Hunter or Field Hunter, Endurance orCompetitive Trail horse as a secondary market (because it wasn’t purpose bred for that), and the proportion of top Sport local-bred horses is very small in this country: I would be better off breeding a horse (breed) that I know well, with several disciplines as a possibility for their future success; even if it were outside of Olympic Sport.