Broodmare Prospect

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=rocksolid;8627584]
I will agree with you that we disagree. I’m not sure how you can judge the movement of the TB mare because I didn’t see a video. Maybe I missed it. As far as the arab mare’s movement, its average. She doesn’t reach underneath with her hind legs while trotting. Going by the pictures, she looks like she is camped out behind which may explain the lack of reach underneath. Its really not fair to judge them (conformationally or for movement) without actually seeing them. Honestly one of the things I like best about the TB mare is her toughness. Yes she has a knee and ankle problem now but she ran a lot. One thing I think many of the horses of today are missing is toughness. The thoroughbreds and arabians will put that into a horse. Hopefully both will find homes.[/QUOTE]

i see a lot of TBs and have had my fair share of warhorses- i don’t find that they lack toughness. 69 starts is a lot, but look at her body – a tough horse would have been clean legged after 69 starts.

there is a video of the chestnut. a couple of them.

[BeeHoney]

I’m going to agree with others. If you are going to breed, the quality of the mare is ESSENTIAL.

Quality–and by quality I mean athleticism for the intended sport, a proper temperament for a riding horse, conformation, movement, and durability–CANNOT be adequately assessed or reasonably assured when you choose from a group of horses that were bred and used for an entirely different purpose via a few photos and videos (none of which show the horse performing at the intended sport for which you are breeding). For that matter, neither can breeding soundness be assessed. Temperament is SO important, and someone saying over the internet “Oh, she’s such a sweetheart to have around” means pretty much zero to me as it doesn’t necessarily correlate at all to rideability.

If you are going to breed, choose a mare that has proven herself in the intended discipline or by producing offspring that have succeeded in the intended discipline. There are a lot of lovely, sport bred/ sport proven mares out there that can be leased for a nominal cost. I would tend to shy away from selecting a TB mare with no sport or riding credentials because her offspring will be that much more difficult to sell. Many people think they are going to keep what they breed but then end up selling because the youngster doesn’t suit or plans/ life change. It’s important to keep that option open.

A last word: Don’t “overlook” ANYTHING–physical and mental soundness are essential. I even generally won’t breed something that is unsound due to a “pasture accident” because half the time it wasn’t really a pasture accident and even if it really was a genuine accident I prefer not to propagate accident prone horses because they can be very costly.

[rocksolid]

BeeHoney you make a lot of great points about selecting brood mares. Beowulf in this day and age if a horse can run 69 times, they are tough. I would love to know how many times this mare ran when she was hurt? Today most horses don’t make half that many starts and if they are super stars, they probably don’t run more than 20 times. To say this mare isn’t tough or clean legged because she broke down after 69 starts is ridiculous.

[LoveJubal]

Thanks for all the feedback. Like I said before, I am not committed to the idea of breeding, it was just a thought. I don’t want to be “that lady” that breeds a crappy mare to a nice stud and expects to get the first prize foal :eek:

But, I have been at a few barns that bred and have handled the foals, helped with the birthing on a few occasions, etc. etc. I definitely am no expert, but I do have some knowledge.

I have definitely thought about the weanling or yearling purchase… Or the 3 year old not yet broke to saddle and thus, very little training cost included at that age. I can do the $8-10k range and that seems reasonable under the circumstances…

Thanks again for the feedback This is why I asked the question - I needed to know exactly how much I didn’t know and what I hadn’t even considered.

[Mistysmom]

I too would recommend going with a mare that is breeding quality and even better, one that is proven. There is enough risk in breeding and the quality of the mare is absolutely essential!

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=rocksolid;8627656]
BeeHoney you make a lot of great points about selecting brood mares. Beowulf in this day and age if a horse can run 69 times, they are tough. I would love to know how many times this mare ran when she was hurt? Today most horses don’t make half that many starts and if they are super stars, they probably don’t run more than 20 times. To say this mare isn’t tough or clean legged because she broke down after 69 starts is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

We must not be looking at the same horses. I don’t agree with you at all that the first mare is breeding quality, in any shape or form. She ran a good race with 69 starts but without seeing her in person I’m not sure how you could say with such conviction she is tough - she doesn’t have a video so it’s hard to gauge her soundness but she has multiple race injuries. Warhorse? Yes. She has a sweet face and I’m sure she is a lovely horse but she is not at all a broodmare prospect. The important part of the equation: she would not be approved by a WB registry. Yes, she ran 69 races but I would much rather put my money on breeding a mare that ran 69 races and was sound doing it and retired able to do another job. That, to me, is a tough horse and is worthy breeding. There are plenty of mares and geldings that retire as warhorses and I don’t think it is appropriate to breed them just because of their lengthy race card. Personally, I think OP is breeding for all the wrong reasons so my advice is probably water of a duck’s back anyway.

Example of a tough horse:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/say+florida+sandy 100 starts, retired sound
http://www.pedigreequery.com/code+wind 75 starts, retired sound & clean legged

[Nootka]

I like the friend’s horse.

[LoveJubal]

[QUOTE=Nootka;8628344]
I like the friend’s horse.[/QUOTE]

Thanks! I almost didn’t post that because she’s not mine. But, I would like the honest feedback. At the time of the pictures, she was going well under saddle within a few months of being off the track. She is a really sweet girl to boot.

My friend is breeding her to a QH stallion this year, so she’s be a potential prospect for next year or the year after. Of course, that is assuming she’s a good catch and a good mom. But, she is not approved with any Warmblood registry.

[NancyM]

Embarking into breeding a mare is a daunting prospect. But if it is something you want to try, it will be an experience for you. There is no way someone on the internet can say whether it will be successful for you, or whether it is a good idea to try this. Many people have, and the results are always somewhere on the scale, from disaster to success. But a learning experience, for sure. Caution, breeding horses can be addictive.

With a first time breeding owner, I would suggest finding an experienced mare, not a maiden. Maidens can be fine, and have other advantages, but when it comes to producing a foal, it is nice to have a mare who has been down the road before. Especially if you haven’t.

The registry thing is not important to me, it is important to others. You have to decide how you feel about that. Get a nice mare, who speaks to you, who is reproductively sound, who has successfully raised foals that you like, with good milk and good mothering skills. Then explore your theories on what might make a good cross for her. No horse is perfect, but some are pretty close to “perfect for you”. No theories are right or wrong 100 % of the time. Do some reading, talk to others, and make your own decisions. Your horses pay the price of your decisions, as they always do. All you can do is do your best.

Good luck, and try to enjoy the process.

If you are looking for a TB mare, sometimes a good place to look is at the TB sales in the fall. Broodmares who have currently unfashionable pedigrees, or who have not produced stakes horses already, are often cheap to buy and repurpose as sport producing mares. They are already in foal, with the stud fee paid. You get a TB foal in the ground within a few months, which you can either raise for your on purposes, or sell. Then can breed the mare back to the stallion of your choice with some idea of what she produces and how well she mothers. If you get lucky and her previous offspring suddenly wake up on the racetrack, the free TB foal can suddenly get valuable when offered for sale back to the racetrack owners. Then suddenly, you are the breeder of a racehorse and can gain breeder’s bonuses in your area. Best case scenario.

[Dressagelvr]

What do you want the baby to be able to do?

Maybe I missed it, but this is the most important question, IMO.

Some good advice has been given. If I were you, I would probably be looking for a baby already on the ground or a custom breeding from a quality breeder with proven mares who specializes in the breed/type of horse you want.

[Nootka]

^^^^ Hunter baby

[QUOTE=LoveJubal;8628405]
But, she is not approved with any Warmblood registry.[/QUOTE]

She can be taken to an inspection of your choice to see if she can be approved. The process isn’t that hard. Just need a trailer and some $$$. What stallion do you want to use? See what registries he is approved for and go from there…

[Derby_Lyn_Farms]

If you are only going to be breeding one time, it is so much easier to buy a foal. I breed a few mares a year and I just bought a prospect from another breeder. There are so many options for custom foals or foals in-utero. Contact a breeder and you will find some are willing to do a custom foal option. I am not trying to discourage you from breeding- you just mentioned about getting a mare to breed just once.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Custom foal/in utero would be pretty cool. Then you can have input and be more involved in the whole progression–without the big risks!

[butiwantedapony]

I have a truly lovely TB mare, currently pregnant and about to foal in next 3-4 weeks, that I am considering selling. She is modernsporthorse type, tall 17h, big flashy mover, super athletic, superb conformation, sweet as can be, sound, and easy to have around. Very easy breeder.

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=847512281929&id=49800307&set=a.556882955429.2051810.49800307&source=43

https://www.facebook.com/anna.lunddetar/posts/866842668679

Send me a pm and I can get you pics/more info.

[LoveJubal]

Thanks again for all the feedback! Like I said, I haven’t decided exactly what to do yet…I have to get the farm and move in first, but I think that’s all going to go through soon!

Anyway, I do want to explore it as an option if I can. Thanks!

[csaper58]

OP I think you need to give this a lot more thought.

The world doesn’t need one more horse, bred by someone who has an extra acre not being grazed, who just wanted to watch the miracle of life unfold.

Responsible breeders educate themselves. They understand confirmation, they can quote bloodlines, and they have a purpose in mind for the life they bring into the world.

And, when it all goes to hell as it often does, they have the grit to call the vet and schedule a backhoe.

Do yourself a kindness, and just buy a horse.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8628323]
The important part of the equation: she would not be approved by a WB registry.[/QUOTE]

You keep saying this as though you know it is fact, but the real fact is that YOU ARE WRONG.

RPSI and ISR/ONA would approve that first mare in a heartbeat. Oldenburg (OHBS/GOV) would probably approve her in either MB or MMB, depending on how she moves and whether her gait qualities are enough to overcome less than ideal conformation issues. Westfalen and AHS might do the same. KWPN might not even require inspection in order for her foals by eligible stallions to receive registration papers.

As for the second mare - RPSI and ISR/ONA would probably still approve her, and KWPN might issue registration papers to her foals by eligible stallions (if they didn’t have to inspect her). But I agree that she is quite upright in the shoulder and built very downhill, with a glaringly high butt. I can’t imagine trying to get sport horses from her.

[butiwantedapony]

I know for a fact that KWPN-NA will allow you to register a foal by KWPN stallion out of TB mate without ever inspecting the mare.

I have a foal about to arrive who will be registered KWPN, mare is to never inspected, stallion is KWPN.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;8632573]
You keep saying this as though you know it is fact, but the real fact is that YOU ARE WRONG.

RPSI and ISR/ONA would approve that first mare in a heartbeat. Oldenburg (OHBS/GOV) would probably approve her in either MB or MMB, depending on how she moves and whether her gait qualities are enough to overcome less than ideal conformation issues. Westfalen and AHS might do the same. KWPN might not even require inspection in order for her foals by eligible stallions to receive registration papers.

As for the second mare - RPSI and ISR/ONA would probably still approve her, and KWPN might issue registration papers to her foals by eligible stallions (if they didn’t have to inspect her). But I agree that she is quite upright in the shoulder and built very downhill, with a glaringly high butt. I can’t imagine trying to get sport horses from her.[/QUOTE]

My key point in 1st post: reputable registry. I don’t know if that is true. I have seen and heard of many TB mares being turned away from OHBS/GOV/AHS due to crooked front legs and over at the knee conformation. Which the first mare has and is probably why she sustained the over-at-the-knee look. AHS wouldn’t approve her with the over-at-the-knee quality either. As far as the second mare… She has so many conformation faults for breeding that I’m not sure she would even get a passing glance from any of the reputable registries. I’ve seen nicer horses get turned away, so again, I am not sure if you are correct.

[vineyridge]

Have you thought about a breeding lease on a WB mare and using a sport horse TB stallion on her? There are some around like Sea Accounts, Hero’s Tribute, and Sea Lion, along with several others who are only available frozen (Coconut Grove, for example). If what you want is a TB or Arab cross, if you’d get an already approved mare who had foals on the ground, you could see what she produces first. The foal could be registered in her registry if the sire was licensed.

I wouldn’t use a TB mare for a cross unless she was exemplary in all ways, from a wonderful pedigree to virtually perfect conformation and proven toughness, if an OTTB. The first two are going to be hard to find cheap.

If the TB mare had a record as a sport horse, that would be a completely different situation.