[QUOTE=m&m;8160364]
What would you say if it was a photo of Monty Roberts?[/QUOTE]
Ding ding ding!!! Imagine if it were PP or even NP on that horse! Suddenly it would be horrific!
[QUOTE=Cindyg;8160342]
I have observed that Buck is not to be questioned, certainly not criticized.[/QUOTE]
The person posting it on Facebook and going on about the similarities between dogs and horses is too stupid for me to get on the side of, even for a second.
Love the responses!!
I’d say there is a good chance this is a horse handled by someone who doesn’t know that horses and dogs are not the same, resulting in Buck needing to adjust “Pookie’s” attitude.
[QUOTE=Appsolute;8160208]
I like much of what Buck says and all…
But I REALLY do not understand the “rushing” with a “wild” (ie, very green, not much handling) horse type stuff. I have never in 30 years had a need to “lasso” a horse… I have never had any broncing and antics starting a horse under saddle.
I DO NOT like these “colt starting” clinics - I see no reason to throw that many new things at a horse at once - in a strange place no less.
Slow and easy as always worked for me, and results in zero fireworks.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think Brannaman goes in for the “break a colt in 3 hours” show, do you?
And colt or not, roped or not, I know I have seen grown up, educated horses standing up and looking wild like this once or twice.
[QUOTE=Cindyg;8160342]
I have observed that Buck is not to be questioned, certainly not criticized.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. That’s one of the features of the trainer-turned-celebrity phenomenon that I hate. I don’t know if he actually promotes that. I don’t know if he would promote that (or do some of the other things he does with horses and people at his clinics) if not for the clinic-way-of-making-a-living.
Let’s put it this way: I’ll go an audit for 8 hours day all three days. I’m not sure I’d want to be in the ring with him and a horse for those same 24 hours. And I think if you asked him candidly, he might not think that was the best way to teach horses or riders either. But what’s a horse trainer with a piece of gospel to share to do?
The Facebook posts by the page owner reek of non-horsey RARA. Regardless of what anyone thinks of BB I would take anything posted on that site with a large hunk of salt.
[QUOTE=Appsolute;8160208]
I like much of what Buck says and all…
I have never in 30 years had a need to “lasso” a horse… [/QUOTE]
You must keep your horses in the stall until they are 5 then. DH occasionally has to lasso one of ours, usually youngstock that we’ve turned out for a few months who have ‘forgotten’ about being caught. Most of them stop running as soon as they feel the rope because we do imprint and socialize our babies and bring them back in for periodic ‘reminders’ even when they are weaned and turned out. However once in a while one will either develop a strong opinion about coming in, or just get a case of the spring sillies, and fight the rope. It looks like this picture. Usually they give up after a few minutes. Sometimes however they have to run themselves out of air before they stop fighting. As soon as they stand still, the pressure goes away, we praise and pet, and go about the previously planned business of haltering and bringing in. A lasso is a tool and using it is not cruelty any more than a girth is, as long as the tool user is reasonably skilled and not bent on punishing the animal.
[QUOTE=mvp;8160447]
Yeah. That’s one of the features of the trainer-turned-celebrity phenomenon that I hate. I don’t know if he actually promotes that. I don’t know if he would promote that (or do some of the other things he does with horses and people at his clinics) if not for the clinic-way-of-making-a-living.
Let’s put it this way: I’ll go an audit for 8 hours day all three days. I’m not sure I’d want to be in the ring with him and a horse for those same 24 hours. And I think if you asked him candidly, he might not think that was the best way to teach horses or riders either. But what’s a horse trainer with a piece of gospel to share to do?[/QUOTE]
I don’t think it’s the trainers (GM anyone?) but the followers they attract.
I mean, the PP followers take the cake in loony and sadly in non-horsiness as well.
Good trainers have to straddle the chasm between horsemanship and the new age fluff that too many people, long removed from the realities of life, bring to the table.
Black Beauty and Black Stallion were works of fiction (and if the people read Black Beauty in context, it wouldn’t be so bad either)
Sometimes it ain’t pretty in the barn. That does not make it abusive.
If the trainer is sound, by all means, let them have celebrity status. There is a need for their knowledge.
But I don’t think people raised in a different cultural setting (the fluff and gold butterfly dreams) can fully understand past the mechanics.
But yeah, people on that page…run free…making Dobbins do something Dobbins don’t want = ABUSE…but then again, kids are treated as well, with similar consequences: Horses end up on the truck, the kids in jail.
A picture tells a lot - and not just the main character (this horse) of the picture, either. As others mentioned, look at all the people around. No one is alarmed, no one is covering their eyes and looking the other way. Buck’s horse is calm, Buck is calm (not that I’d expect him to kick up much of a fuss, but I have seen him sort of get into it with a horse who totally did not respect his space and a picture of that might have shown him in a more aggressive stance). It is the horse who has the problem.
I am quite sure that in working with my mustang that a few pictures like this could have been taken of that split second when he was leaping around and standing on his hind legs. And that would have been with a plain halter and lead rope. When I first got him, his answer to many things was to have strong reactions as such. And now he doesn’t. Well, not usually, anyway. 
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8160801]
A picture tells a lot - and not just the main character (this horse) of the picture, either. As others mentioned, look at all the people around. No one is alarmed, no one is covering their eyes and looking the other way. Buck’s horse is calm, Buck is calm (not that I’d expect him to kick up much of a fuss, but I have seen him sort of get into it with a horse who totally did not respect his space and a picture of that might have shown him in a more aggressive stance). It is the horse who has the problem.
I am quite sure that in working with my mustang that a few pictures like this could have been taken of that split second when he was leaping around and standing on his hind legs. And that would have been with a plain halter and lead rope. When I first got him, his answer to many things was to have strong reactions as such. And now he doesn’t. Well, not usually, anyway. [/QUOTE]
On occasion, my horse will do that as well. He has some great “airs above the ground” moments.
[QUOTE=mvp;8160445]
I don’t think Brannaman goes in for the “break a colt in 3 hours” show, do you?
.[/QUOTE]
Its a “colt starting clinic” - I am just not a fan of hauling green youngsters to a strange place - then attempting to introduce tack, and start them under saddle in a matter or hours, or days.
Buck’s clinics advertise that the “Colt Starting Clinic” is:
“A class for young horses that may or may not have been handled or worked with” and within 4 days (a few sessions) the horse will be undersaddle and working in a snaffle. So, “break a horse in 8 hours”? Maybe they spend that much time? And if they did 2 hours day - again, against the way I do things, short daily sessions - just not possible at a “colt starting clinic” - unless the clinic went on for 60 days!
To me - that is SUPER rushed. I just don’t push things that fast. And like I said, I get ZERO fireworks. No bucking undersaddle, no stress - just a half hour a day, slow and steady.
Makes for quiet, confident horses - I just have NO need to rush things and get a horse going in a few sessions.
But - I also had great mentors growing up - learned by working side by side, hours and hours a day, 7 days a week - clinics have their uses, but all too often most of the participants do not have good mentor-ship at home - and try to “rush” their education - just like they want to rush the starting process.
And I handle my youngsters - they aren’t ever left to be “wild” - so I am coming from that point of view.
And I agree with others - I don’t know if I “blame” Buck and these other trainers that much. I have a feeling things would be pretty different if they were just working horses at home - and not on these $$$ clinic circuits, and producing all these “DVDs” and whatnot. I bristle at these “celebrity trainers”.
Nope - out on 50 acres until they are about 5. I have had to walk down a couple, but just once. Still have never had to lasso one.
And I am not saying that a lasso is abuse - I just have never had to use one. Maybe its an “english” riding thing? Most tack rooms I know do not have a lasso in them, and I can’t say my trainers were good at throwing a rope - I always associated roping with cattle.
Do the europeans lasso their young stock?
I can’t find it in the conversation on Facebook now but someone was talking about the horses back going to sleep right where we ride?? Going on and on about how awful it is to ride a horse. Wondering where she got that kind of information. I have never heard much about that before. As long as it is a healthy horse.
No abuse horse use guy or gal is a complete idiot, with no actual knowledge of training. These people should be discredited any chance you get. The offer nothing to the horse world, but put themselves above all others because you can just pet on and love any animal into obedience, horses, grizzly bears, sharks. Stop the violence. Please!
This isn’t about putting Buck above any criticism. I have never even met him.
Buck is doing absolutely nothing to that horse. He puts a rope around his neck, and the horse is pulling against his own pressure. Any horse hand with any skill with a rope knows when to release, or let up. But mostly, the horse will let himself up to slack. It takes moments for a horse to figure this out. What’s waiting for the horse when he does? Nothing but praise and and touch and release and some rubbing on. It works every time, because it is how a horse operates. Chances are, that horse will lead like butter, load in anything you put in front of him and never be a pull back.
So those FB sites and horse lover page, abuse obsessed people on those sites can kiss my ass!
Exactly, Barbaric!
This is what I find so scary - they really have a skewed idea of what working with a horse is like. One lady in the conversation didn’t even know what under saddle meant.
Yes - please go love a grizzly bear into obedience. Yikes.
I saw that FB page. The Original poster says in 1 comment that she took that photo from a website. I wonder if she did it with permission or is guilty of copyright infringement as well as being a troll. Must be a member of RARA and against the carriage horses too.
Many of the comments lead one to believe there aren’t many intelligent people in the world with any sense about animals.
[QUOTE=pezk;8161129]
I saw that FB page. The Original poster says in 1 comment that she took that photo from a website. I wonder if she did it with permission or is guilty of copyright infringement as well as being a troll. Must be a member of RARA and against the carriage horses too.
Many of the comments lead one to believe there aren’t many intelligent people in the world with any sense about animals.[/QUOTE]
The original poster thought it was part of a video - the lady that took the picture did chime in to say how the picture had been taken.
LOL it’s kind of the head/neck position my mare adopted when I was asking her to counterbend on a circle the other day. “NO MOM THAT’S HARD! I DON’T WANNA!” (She’s 13, and knows exactly how to do what I was asking for, it’s just easier to go all Rabid Giraffe than use her inside hind leg properly some days.) I’m sure any number of my rides could result in a picture that would raise eyebrows due to Mare Shenanigans.
It’s hard to judge a training session by a moment in time, but the fact that the person involved, and proximal horses, are all totally chill, tells me it’s the horse having an issue, not the person handling it.
As to the “back falling asleep” then I’m apparently doing dressage all wrong, trying to get it all up and swinging :lol:
