Buck Brannaman photo - Thoughts??

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=LookmaNohands;8164602]
You are missing the point here I think. If the horse is fighting, you have over faced it. Just as teaching a horse to jump the first time and facing it with a 3 foot fence would also be over facing it. Instead, you start with a single pole on the ground and go from there.

This is one of the cornerstones of Linda Tellington-Jones’ TTouch work. It is called “chunking down.” You break an exercise down into simple, easy, non-threatening parts and slowly build from there. But it doesn’t take extra time really because if you do this carefully, the horse does not hesitate. Working in this way, the horse learns to trust you and also builds self-confidence. In fact, the way we do it the horses enjoy it. And it is fun to watch.

We avoid anything that will upset the horse because a fearful reaction becomes a possibility for future fearful reactions as these are “written” into the nervous system. Think about it. Have you ever had a bad, fearful or painful experience? Have you later had a similar situation trigger a fearful response in you? That is difficult to override for people and even harder for a horse. So why go there in the first place if you can avoid it?

I have been working with horses in this way for 25 years very successfully and can’t imagine why people push horses to the brink of these spectacular fearful reactions when they are simply not necessary.[/QUOTE]

Actually I suspect Mr. Brannaman would say he is doing just that. Breaking things down into something simple-you give then I give. Not much more simple than that. It is not about picking a fight with them. However some will pick a fight no matter what.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8164686]
But all we have is one picture. We do not know if this resulted in a fearful reaction or not. This horse may have quickly calmed down after the photo was taken. Or this horse may be completely spoiled as alagirl alludes to. As I said before, most of these clinicians can very astutely read what a horses reaction will be- they know the spoiled from the fearful and proceed accordingly.[/QUOTE]

Forgot more about horses that I will ever know…

But judging from Buck’s reaction, or rather lack there of, this was a reaction somewhat expected. Maybe the first time the horse hit the end of the rope and encountered resistance…

But sometimes it’s not pretty, but necessary to get the horse on the road to be a solid citizen.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8164375]
I also believe that that kind of innate ability to read a horse is not something one can learn. You either have it or you don’t. You can learn to get better at reading animals but there are people who just KNOW. That can’t be taught. No matter how hard one tries with or without the gimmicks some of the folks who have that ability sell.[/QUOTE]

I think it can be taught because I can explain to someone else what I see a horse do that allows me to infer a given thought or emotion in him.

If someone watched the pattern of me and the horse, and my narration of that enough, they could learn to read the horse at least as well as I do.

[Caol_Ila]

Yes, that ‘Path of the Horse’ documentary is pretty interesting. I watched it and then felt a little bit guilty when I went to the barn and put a saddle and bridle on my horse. But the horse was cheery enough about it, so I figured it could not be as bad as all that. The filmmaker must have gone around to horse shows and filmed the worst riding she saw, then edited it and argued, “Look, bits and saddles are bad!”

The ‘saddle cause numbness’ claim was made by Alexander Nevzorov, who already believed saddles inflicted damage to the horse before he did a study ‘proving’ saddles inflicted damage to the horse. When you read his stuff or see him interviewed, you get the sense he is not going to approach anything with an open mind, but will be proving his a priori assertions.

At the two day Mark Rashid clinic I attended a couple weeks ago, there was one particularly troubled horse and rider combination, but Mark’s teaching made a big difference and the horse was going a lot better by the end of the clinic. Mark gave a very plainspoken lecture to the rider about why it was important for him to work on the things they worked on in the clinic, and how if he went back to doing things the way he had been, the horse would revert to its former behaviour.

[LookmaNohands]

[QUOTE=mvp;8164834]
I think it can be taught because I can explain to someone else what I see a horse do that allows me to infer a given thought or emotion in him.

If someone watched the pattern of me and the horse, and my narration of that enough, they could learn to read the horse at least as well as I do.[/QUOTE]

For the most part, I think it can be taught to someone with an open mind. Some people are just more intuitive or observant than others and will be better at it.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Caol Ila;8164863]
Yes, that ‘Path of the Horse’ documentary is pretty interesting. I watched it and then felt a little bit guilty when I went to the barn and put a saddle and bridle on my horse. But the horse was cheery enough about it, so I figured it could not be as bad as all that. The filmmaker must have gone around to horse shows and filmed the worst riding she saw, then edited it and argued, “Look, bits and saddles are bad!”

The ‘saddle cause numbness’ claim was made by Alexander Nevzorov, who already believed saddles inflicted damage to the horse before he did a study ‘proving’ saddles inflicted damage to the horse. When you read his stuff or see him interviewed, you get the sense he is not going to approach anything with an open mind, but will be proving his a priori assertions.

At the two day Mark Rashid clinic I attended a couple weeks ago, there was one particularly troubled horse and rider combination, but Mark’s teaching made a big difference and the horse was going a lot better by the end of the clinic. Mark gave a very plainspoken lecture to the rider about why it was important for him to work on the things they worked on in the clinic, and how if he went back to doing things the way he had been, the horse would revert to its former behaviour.[/QUOTE]

Just seeing your reply here - I posted a response to you in my other thread.

I’ve been happy with the results I’ve seen using BB’s methods with my mustang. For my little pony, I think those basics are good, but she is a different kind of soul. Very sensitive (well, Mac is, too, but in a seemingly different way) and engaging and eager to please. She does not/will not need the level of ground work and repetition that Mac did. I guess that’s the difference between working with a horse who is handled daily (as she is) versus getting an older horse who spent some time on the range and then had sporadic handling and training (not much of which was done with feel and finesse).

[Caol_Ila]

Horses for courses. I’ll pick and choose from different methods depending on the horse in front of me.

Had one Welsh D that would run backwards when you tried to make her do small circles on a leadrope, responding to the gently swinging rope at her back end, a la Buck. Someone had tried to do ‘natural horsemanship’ with her and made a bit of a mess out of it. I could have taken a lot of time and fixed this, but the horse didn’t need to be able to turn in small circles on the end of the lead; the owner wanted to trail ride her and get her nicely stopping and steering under saddle. When it became obvious that this was a ‘thing,’ I changed tactics (more ‘traditional’ English ways of bringing on a horse, the long reins) and the horse was much more cooperative.

[PeanutButterPony]

[QUOTE=mvp;8164834]
I think it can be taught because I can explain to someone else what I see a horse do that allows me to infer a given thought or emotion in him.

If someone watched the pattern of me and the horse, and my narration of that enough, they could learn to read the horse at least as well as I do.[/QUOTE]

I don’t find that always to be true. Just as some people really just can’t sing, they are tone deaf in ways others aren’t.

My SO is a great guy, natural animal lover, but he didn’t grow up with horses, the horses came with me…he helps me manage the horses as much or more than I do, and those horses are at home with us…but he absolutely cannot ‘read’ them with any degree of subtlety.

I talk a lot ;), and I’ve taught others and helped awaken their own inner reader…but him? He’s horse deaf. And with that said he can read dogs really well, and I’m a bit dog deaf.

[LoriW]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8164686]
But all we have is one picture. We do not know if this resulted in a fearful reaction or not. This horse may have quickly calmed down after the photo was taken. Or this horse may be completely spoiled as alagirl alludes to. As I said before, most of these clinicians can very astutely read what a horses reaction will be- they know the spoiled from the fearful and proceed accordingly.[/QUOTE]

Ding ding ding! Great response. These guys are the real deal who know what they are dealing with and know when and how much pressure needs to be applied. Their timing is so impeccable (not all, but Buck clearly), that as soon as they feel the horse release, they let go of the pressure. Its a VERY difficult thing to do and I guarantee Buck is not traumatizing that horse, he is teaching it. Again, its a moment in time and the look on everyone else around him, man and horse alike, is so calm, its only the colt that is tense and I’m sure a couple seconds or minutes later, it was all worked out in his brain.

[MorningGlory1]

I have a great deal of respect for BB. Not a fanatic, but I believe he is honest about what he is doing. I have heard him in clinics and on his DVD’s say that he will show someone how to do something, but that you have to repeat that one thing maybe 1,000 times for it to become second nature for the horse and rider. Not in a “drill” sort of way, just that it takes LOTS of patience and practice. And he very much preaches that you give the horse the opportunity to do a thing right and let them come to that conclusion on their own, rather than forcing them into something.

I prefer to work with my animals with positive reinforcement, but I currently have two individuals (both male!) an Australian Kelpie puppy and a very large Dutch Warmblood, who test boundaries with far more energy and insistence than any other animal I have ever trained. Each of them occasionally needs to be reminded, calmly, that NO means NO. No anger or frustration involved, just firm. My two adult female Kelpies have to be equally firm with the puppy. Taz was the first of his litter to explore outside the whelping box, eyes still closed; the first to show an interest in sheep; the first to try to escape from the puppy enclosure, and the hardest to get to settle. It’s just who he is. Very different training him than either of my girls, who required very little correction.

The Dutch gelding likes to challenge everyone, two legged or four, in a playful but slightly bully-ish manner. If he doesn’t have boundaries, someone is going to get hurt. It doesn’t have to be rude or harsh, but it has to be firm and consistent. Very different from my other horse, who wouldn’t challenge a fly. I am guessing that the horse in the photo is more like my Dutch guy, and may be testing whether or not Buck is serious about “this rope thing.”

And BTW, the palomino gelding in the movie Buck? Yeah, the owner DID NOT euthanize him. Took him back to her pasture and turned him back out with the other stallions. He later attempted to kill someone else. Don’t know what happened after that. Very sad situation.