Buck Brannaman photo - Thoughts??

[JGHIRETIRE]

[QUOTE=HorsesinHaiti;8162041]
Fyi - the Seven Clinics DVd disk 2, chapter ‘on firming up’ is where Buck himself explains how and why he gets firm with a spoiled horse, and hos he goes back to soft ASAP as part of training by release. Search for that on Youtube, my network won’t let me youtube right now. And he states that is own colts rarely need such because he does start them slow, frequent, and correct, and that it’s the poorly handled horses brought to clinics for fixing that need unusual handling.

I also re Ll but haven’t found where he snips at a clinic group that they should have been handling their colts more correctly all along, not waiting for a starting clinic to jam it in four days. But it’s four days or never at all for many ammys, so better he do clinics than not.

I agree he has an arrogant streak. His training helps the horses enough, and,is horse focused enough, that I can put up with it though I’m no worshipper.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for finding that.

[HorsesinHaiti]

[QUOTE=mvp;8162093]
This might be food for a different thread.

But does your argument work? I.e. The ammy who has screwed up a young horse, has no help and brings it to a Brannaman colt starting clinic gets a “not normally how I do it, but I only have 4 days, so here’s that version….” education…. that is still better than nothing, so Brannaman’s clinics are valuable, even if the clinic-ness of the teaching distorts the process of the way he’s actually start a colt.

I’m not sure that clinic is worth having because it doesn’t accurately represent a great process for starting colts. And I’m not sure someone who can’t or won’t spend the time and money until it’s a lot of it for one weekend with a famous clinician is going to really go start their colt the long, slow, quiet way Brannaman could describe…. but not show them in four days.

Has any of you guys ever seen an ammy reformed and really sent on a new track of training after Brannaman comes to town? Does that produce new clientele for local Brannaman-esque trainers? Do these ammies go home and start putting in an honest 5-days a week program on their horses and get them sophisticated, soft and rideable?[/QUOTE]

Gah, what isn’t working is my blackberry nor my data network!! I posted a classic for the punctuation poliice and couldnt correct it.

I was trying to say ive seen video where buck snipped that 'people should have been working a little each day, correct work, with their horses rather than waiting for the 4 day clinic to fix it in that short window '. End of paraphrase, then my own comment about some being better off with 4 days of help than none at all. I have the dvds because there is zero decent horse training available to me, so a dvd or going to audit a clinic would be all I can get hold of. Pathetic or not, it is reality for too many people.

So yes, i was introduced to Buck and this horsemanship on this board and during the one week trimming clinic I took since we have zero hoofcare here either. I got the dvds, study them, and use them to work with a few semiferal ponies owned by a friend each day i have an hour free after work since no one else can. The ponies seem to think i’m improving and are learning. I dearly wish we had a skilled human trainer to hold the lead rope and show us directly, but the dvd and any clinic I get to are much better than nothing.

Filly’s up awake, so i’m off now to apply some of what i’ve been reviewing before it rains. Its certainly a legit question mvp, good you asked it. Some of us really are that stuck and needing help getting started.

[mvp]

Meh, I’d cut you some slack trying to train feral horses in Haiti.

There are training/horsemanship deserts here in the mainland US, and then there are Deserts-- capital D-- as I imagine your island is.

And FWIW, I, too, came our from a Brannaman clinic (as I have others) and done my own experimenting with horses. And I’ll have to continue to do that because I don’t have someone local to me (so far) that I is set up to teach people a few times a month.

My experience/skepticism isn’t about the information Brannaman (or any clinician) delivers, but the clinic as the format for delivering it. That comes from watching/talking to other HOs who don’t know that they need more help and/or that horses need daily training, as you point out. And it comes from my own mistaken wanderings when left alone between “installments” of knowledge between clinics.

If I have any wrath/frustration, it’s only toward the people who think a very expensive 4 days is sufficient (or ought to be for all the money they are paying and the guy’s reputation). And it’s also for the clinicians who take people’s money, tell them this isn’t the way to really do it, apologize a bit, and continue to do clinics and DVDs and such anyway.

[Cindyg]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8161965]
Are absolute positive training methods overtaking the world?
I am not anti positive methods but these “do not ever make an animal do something they might not like” methods I don’t see as very viable for making well adjusted horses or pets for that matter.[/QUOTE]

I am very in to positive reinforcement, but I can’t participate in those +R only groups. Way over the top, even for me; and, like I said, I am VERY into positive reinforcement.

[JGHIRETIRE]

I’m into positive reinforcement and being as light as possible, I am also dealing with a 1,000 +lb animal that at any moment could decide to be a dweeb. There should be a happy medium in there somewhere.

[BEARCAT]

“Are absolute positive training methods overtaking the world?
I am not anti positive methods but these “do not ever make an animal do something they might not like” methods I don’t see as very viable for making well adjusted horses or pets for that matter.”

I think you may be confusing “positive reinforcement” with something else.
“Positive reinforcement works by presenting a motivating/reinforcing stimulus to the person after the desired behavior is exhibited, making the behavior more likely to happen in the future.”
Here’s an easy read on the difference with negative reinforcement, which is simply the removal of a stimulus.
http://bcotb.com/the-difference-between-positivenegative-reinforcement-and-positivenegative-punishment/

Plenty of animals trained that way learn to do unpleasant things, such as a zoo elephant getting shots, a sea lion getting blood drawn, a horse getting in a trailer, a dog getting their nails filed, etc.

It has nothing to do with rainbows and lollipops

[LookmaNohands]

For over 25 years TTouch founder, Linda Tellington-Jones has taught a week long “Starting the young horse” Clinic at the Bitterroot Ranch in Wyoming. During that time only ONE horse ever bucked. These horses, usually six of them, have had little handling previously. Most were Arabians in the earlier years but they have added some draft crosses in the past few years. No round pens involved, no lassos just smart handling.

Training does not have to confrontational!

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=BEARCAT;8163837]
“Are absolute positive training methods overtaking the world?
I am not anti positive methods but these “do not ever make an animal do something they might not like” methods I don’t see as very viable for making well adjusted horses or pets for that matter.”

I think you may be confusing “positive reinforcement” with something else.
“Positive reinforcement works by presenting a motivating/reinforcing stimulus to the person after the desired behavior is exhibited, making the behavior more likely to happen in the future.”
Here’s an easy read on the difference with negative reinforcement, which is simply the removal of a stimulus.
http://bcotb.com/the-difference-between-positivenegative-reinforcement-and-positivenegative-punishment/

Plenty of animals trained that way learn to do unpleasant things, such as a zoo elephant getting shots, a sea lion getting blood drawn, a horse getting in a trailer, a dog getting their nails filed, etc.

It has nothing to do with rainbows and lollipops ;)[/QUOTE]

Yes. I totally agree. But there are many who are describing it as the “something else.” That is why I added the word absolute in hopes of clarifying the type of “training” I was referring to. There are people out there who don’t want to even use the term negative at all so people are missing a huge chunk of the process.

[roseymare]

And I want to add, I have heard people who know better say things like “we never do anything negative”. The narrater at the Shedd Aquarium show last summer read a script that specifically talked about using NO negative training and used those words multiple times. So people get this idea that negative reinforcement is BAD. Instead of explaining the difference between negative reinforcement and punishment it seems to be in style today just to leave out the word negative all together. This is a huge disservice as people get this positive only pseudo method I was referring to in their head as correct.

[Kwill]

[QUOTE=LookmaNohands;8163877]
For over 25 years TTouch founder, Linda Tellington-Jones has taught a week long “Starting the young horse” Clinic at the Bitterroot Ranch in Wyoming. During that time only ONE horse ever bucked. These horses, usually six of them, have had little handling previously. Most were Arabians in the earlier years but they have added some draft crosses in the past few years. No round pens involved, no lassos just smart handling.

Training does not have to confrontational![/QUOTE]

Linda Tellington Jones probably doesn’t get as much credit as she deserves … she’s a bit wacko with her swirls theory of horse personality, which I am still on the fence about, but I think he training methods, especially with Arabians, are sound and she is kind to horses. I didn’t realize she was still training, she must be quite elderly now.

[roseymare]

It is hard for these big name gurus to reach a happy medium I would suppose. People clamour for their help but don’t want to spend more than 3 days at once. And honestly very few people can afford the time off work.

[LookmaNohands]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8164097]
And I want to add, I have heard people who know better say things like “we never do anything negative”. The narrater at the Shedd Aquarium show last summer read a script that specifically talked about using NO negative training and used those words multiple times. So people get this idea that negative reinforcement is BAD. Instead of explaining the difference between negative reinforcement and punishment it seems to be in style today just to leave
out the word negative all together. This is a huge disservice as people get this positive only pseudo method I was referring to in their head as correct.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Negative Reinforcement is not bad! It is something unpleasant that is removed when the desired behavior is offered. People confuse it with punishment. A leg aid is negative reinforcement. Apply pressure and as soon as the horse responds correctly you release the pressure. You must release pressure immediately so the horse can make the association between what he did and the release of pressure.

It is so simple just to look things up and get it right.

[Pipkin]

I have seen horses fling themselves about like this, going onto a trailer, or panicking whilst tied, who have never been the same again. It doesn’t take much at all to damage the neck.

Why would you want to enter that situation when it is so avoidable?

[roseymare]

I just don’t understand why it just isn’t explained correctly in the first place.
At Shedd last summer I was very irritated. They even brought out a dog they had adopted and made a big point of showing how a dog should be trained the same way as the dolphins and went on again about doing nothing NEGATIVE. They were continuing to make that point. Why not explain the training correctly and talk about not using punishment? It is maddening to me. New people to training upon hearing these type speils do think negative reinforcement equals punishment.

[analise]

I haven’t read every comment on this thread and I didn’t read any of the stuff on facebook (because I figured I’d fall into the “someone is WRONG on the INTERNET” trap ). But the picture did make me think about my big guy (literally, the horse is a better part of a ton). We had some issues a while back where he picked up the idea that he could leave whenever he didn’t want to cooperate anymore so I started leading him with a chain. I don’t pull on the chain. Most of the time it’s like it’s not even there.

But one of the first times we were leading with it, he decided he was leaving. He bulled in front of me and hit the end of that chain, reared up, and swung around to face me like “WTF was THAT???”. I did my darndest not to jerk on the chain, just hold on to keep him there and then gave a little release when he stopped.

If someone had taken a picture of him in mid-rear, I’m sure people would claim I was being abusive too.

So yeah, I’m firmly in the ‘it’s a moment in time’ camp. Sometimes, it isn’t. But like I did see other comments…look at everyone else in the background. No one is freaking out, the other horse is relaxed, Buck looks relaxed…he’s not jerking or pulling on the line, he’s just waiting for the horse to stop.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=Pipkin;8164344]
I have seen horses fling themselves about like this, going onto a trailer, or panicking whilst tied, who have never been the same again. It doesn’t take much at all to damage the neck.

Why would you want to enter that situation when it is so avoidable?[/QUOTE]

I would ask how do you teach a spoiled horse to not panic? One who never learned to give? Or do you just don’t ever ask them to?
That said I do think that there are some horses who will fight until death when put into some situations. They seem to have an extra panic state.
I think the issue is the ability to read the horse. This is something that most of the clinicians like Mr. Brannaman seem to be able to do.

[roseymare]

I also believe that that kind of innate ability to read a horse is not something one can learn. You either have it or you don’t. You can learn to get better at reading animals but there are people who just KNOW. That can’t be taught. No matter how hard one tries with or without the gimmicks some of the folks who have that ability sell.

[LookmaNohands]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8164368]
I would ask how do you teach a spoiled horse to not panic? One who never learned to give? Or do you just don’t ever ask them to?
That said I do think that there are some horses who will fight until death when put into some situations. They seem to have an extra panic state.
I think the issue is the ability to read the horse. This is something that most of the clinicians like Mr. Brannaman seem to be able to do.[/QUOTE]

You are missing the point here I think. If the horse is fighting, you have over faced it. Just as teaching a horse to jump the first time and facing it with a 3 foot fence would also be over facing it. Instead, you start with a single pole on the ground and go from there.

This is one of the cornerstones of Linda Tellington-Jones’ TTouch work. It is called “chunking down.” You break an exercise down into simple, easy, non-threatening parts and slowly build from there. But it doesn’t take extra time really because if you do this carefully, the horse does not hesitate. Working in this way, the horse learns to trust you and also builds self-confidence. In fact, the way we do it the horses enjoy it. And it is fun to watch.

We avoid anything that will upset the horse because a fearful reaction becomes a possibility for future fearful reactions as these are “written” into the nervous system. Think about it. Have you ever had a bad, fearful or painful experience? Have you later had a similar situation trigger a fearful response in you? That is difficult to override for people and even harder for a horse. So why go there in the first place if you can avoid it?

I have been working with horses in this way for 25 years very successfully and can’t imagine why people push horses to the brink of these spectacular fearful reactions when they are simply not necessary.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=LookmaNohands;8164602]
You are missing the point here I think. If the horse is fighting, you have over faced it. Just as teaching a horse to jump the first time and facing it with a 3 foot fence would also be over facing it. Instead, you start with a single pole on the ground and go from there.

This is one of the cornerstones of Linda Tellington-Jones’ TTouch work. It is called “chunking down.” You break an exercise down into simple, easy, non-threatening parts and slowly build from there. But it doesn’t take extra time really because if you do this carefully, the horse does not hesitate. Working in this way, the horse learns to trust you and also builds self-confidence. In fact, the way we do it the horses enjoy it. And it is fun to watch.

We avoid anything that will upset the horse because a fearful reaction becomes a possibility for future fearful reactions as these are “written” into the nervous system. Think about it. Have you ever had a bad, fearful or painful experience? Have you later had a similar situation trigger a fearful response in you? That is difficult to override for people and even harder for a horse. So why of there in the first place if you can avoid it?

I have been working with horses in this way for 25 years very successfully and can’t imagine why people push horses to the brink of these spectacular fearful reactions when they are simply not necessary.[/QUOTE]

But you start with baby steps, reward the good, make the right decision easy. You find little need to ‘read the house rules’ (AKA have CTJM…)

Enter the new age urban horse owner with no prior exposure to the nature of horses. Black Beauty and Black Stallion (and Fury) are the points of reference.
There is no concept of natural behavior or what constitutes safe vs unsafe practices. I mean, just read what those nuts commented on that FB thread!

Even horses that have not been spoiled might have their sh*thead moment.
Been there at least once: If a trail didn’t eat you yesterday, you will go up there today.
BTW, these people also have badly behaved dogs, and likely the kids behave like crap as well. No, a regular trainer will have little need to deal with exploding equines, true.

But clinicians get to see more of the DIY results gone awry. Like the spoiled yellow colt. If they can’t fix them, thy will either kill somebody or end up on the truck.

[roseymare]

But all we have is one picture. We do not know if this resulted in a fearful reaction or not. This horse may have quickly calmed down after the photo was taken. Or this horse may be completely spoiled as alagirl alludes to. As I said before, most of these clinicians can very astutely read what a horses reaction will be- they know the spoiled from the fearful and proceed accordingly.