Bullying

[Laurierace]

@meupatdoes what she said. The distinction is crystal clear.

[Dbliron]

Well said, Meup!

[lorilu]

A great post on FB today from Deanna Corby. Here is the video from the post: : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N5uV3oNlUc&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR28J_A02HJ1t6HDOr82f3ug0WttiXgWofPFKpVqf0oNO2Xw73K6WW-KuUY

Deanna Corby is brave, as a pro, to post this…

[mvp]

@meupatdoes

People are getting so hopped up about “bullying bullying bullying” as a knee jerk response that they have lost their ability to think critically.

Re some of the examples cited:

There is a big difference between a junior in a clinic trying to learn who gets videoed and filleted, and, say Nick Peronace. I barely participate in the Nick Peronace threads myself, but he is
an adult
who actively engages with an online audience
who vastly overstates his own abilities
in an attempt to gain clients and take people’s money

That is LEGITIMATELY CRITICIZABLE. Pointing that out is not “bullying”, it is stating facts that are real and opinions that are grounded in reality. Very different from filleting a junior who is just trying to take a lesson and never asked to engage with an online audience.

Moving on to our next example, that Bernhard Maier ride was also LEGITIMATELY CRITICIZABLE. It was so awful and wretched you can hear the people who were there booing and whistling, and there is a reason it got worldwide attention. We do not need to sit around creating a safe space for abuse because we don’t want to say any legitimate criticisms out loud in the name of not bullying. There is also “having standards for how the horses are treated”.

Now, should the man have gotten death threats? Absolutely not. Allowing for legitimate criticisms is not a carte blanche to physically threaten people, damage their property, harrass them personally, or try to affect their life and activities outside of horses. “You shouldn’t be allowed on a horse if you’re going to treat it like that” is legitimate criticism. “I’m going to kill you,” is not.

Similarly, it was certainly possible to be LEGITIMATELY CRITICAL of Shelley Browning’s ride and wonder wtf her trainer was doing if she couldn’t teach her how to ride better than that over hundreds of thousands of dollars spent and a 7 year relationship. It is legitimate to be up in arms over how that horse was treated. This does not mean it would have been ok to issue her death threats or accost the trainer if you saw her in the local track store.

Let’s use our critical thinking skills and recognize that there is a difference between a junior minding her business in a clinic and Nick Peronace making ridiculous claims to drum up business and Bernhard Maier swimming horse through oxers repeatedly. There is a difference between legitimate criticism and bullying.

I’m certainly not going to issue anyone a death threat over a video I watched on line, but let’s also not create a safe space for people to treat their horses like shit either.

The rides, the horsemanship, perhaps even the dishonest marketing are, indeed “legitimately criticizable” acts. (Not sure about the BS marketing since we work in an utterly unregulated industry, so lots and lots of folks do similar and yet don’t attract such ongoing criticism). In any case, these are all adults, doing what they do in public and, presumably, could have done otherwise.

No problem, But how much criticism is warranted? Warning folks off a charlatan is fine. Doing that repeatedly? I’d say that the reasonable person would have an “enough is enough” line. And beyond that line, it’s not legitimate anymore. How about digging into the facts of someone’s life that are wholely unrelated to their bad ride or horsemanship? How about leaving the horsemanship or the details of that life and just going straight to ad hominem attacks?

Y’all really don’t think there is a line of legitimacy that some of these long, long threads cross?

[TheMoo]

@mvp

The rides, the horsemanship, perhaps even the dishonest marketing are, indeed “legitimately criticizable” acts. (Not sure about the BS marketing since we work in an utterly unregulated industry, so lots and lots of folks do similar and yet don’t attract such ongoing criticism). In any case, these are all adults, doing what they do in public and, presumably, could have done otherwise.

No problem, But how much criticism is warranted? Warning folks off a charlatan is fine. Doing that repeatedly? I’d say that the reasonable person would have an “enough is enough” line. And beyond that line, it’s not legitimate anymore. How about digging into the facts of someone’s life that are wholely unrelated to their bad ride or horsemanship? How about leaving the horsemanship or the details of that life and just going straight to ad hominem attacks?

Y’all really don’t think there is a line of legitimacy that some of these long, long threads cross?

My legitimacy line that gets crossed with those threads is “why the hell do g-you care so much?” I mean honestly. SW is an ah*, so is NP, etc etc. We ALL know this. Yes they are bullies but obsessing over it puts people in the grey area in the name of “everyone should know.”

I also think people in the public eye or people who post public photos and videos need to expect that people will over the top rude and crass. I’m not justifying the behavior just pointing out people are people.

Also, bullying in most cases is seen as subjective. If the majority agree with the statements it’s not bullying. If the statements can be spun so the person making them can blame the readers/listeners it’s not considered bullying. These people that do this, IMO, are no better than blatant types like SW and NP.

[mvp]

@TheMoo

My legitimacy line that gets crossed with those threads is “why the hell do g-you care so much?” I mean honestly. SW is an ah*, so is NP, etc etc. We ALL know this. Yes they are bullies but obsessing over it puts people in the grey area in the name of “everyone should know.”

I also think people in the public eye or people who post public photos and videos need to expect that people will over the top rude and crass. I’m not justifying the behavior just pointing out people are people.

Also, bullying in most cases is seen as subjective. If the majority agree with the statements it’s not bullying. If the statements can be spun so the person making them can blame the readers/listeners it’s not considered bullying. These people that do this, IMO, are no better than blatant types like SW and NP.

I don’t think we ought to lower our standards so far that we should wag our finger at people who don’t expect rude and crass behavior from the public. Why advocate for such a low, low bar? And why put this into the “people are people” camp— as though it’s some inherent quality of human beings to be a-holes. They can be much better, too. To me, the “people are people” is a hop skip and a jump from the victim-blaming built into the “boys will be boys” slogan. Not co-signing that.

And I don’t think bullying is subjective. I do think a crucial element of any definition of it has to do with there being a power differential between the bully and his/her victim, as well as the unrelenting nature of the bullying.

[TheMoo]

@mvp

I don’t think we ought to lower our standards so far that we should wag our finger at people who don’t expect rude and crass behavior from the public. Why advocate for such a low, low bar? And why put this into the “people are people” camp— as though it’s some inherent quality of human beings to be a-holes. They can be much better, too.

And I don’t think bullying is subjective. I do think a crucial element of any definition of it has to do with there being a power differential between the bully and his/her victim, as well as the unrelenting nature of the bullying.

I was not saying wag our fingers at people who don’t expect it. My point is, most of the time, people make one or two comments. That isn’t bullying to me. Harping in the way SW does is bullying.

Not all bullying is subjective, but there are subtle forms of bullying IMO. Ie your example of constant long threads. Could one see that as bullying after the point has been exhausted? I mean in some cases, people visit the Facebook page of people and start an “OMG!” thread. Why are they caring enough to go to the person page, website, whatever?

[BigMama1]

NP seems to have stopped falsely advertising his credentials and harassing people online, so he has more or less faded back into oblivion, as it should be.

SW continues to defame, bully and harass riders on a nearly daily basis from her personal page as well as the DH one. These are just the latest examples: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto…3&id=673030262

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto…3&id=673030262

I think as long as she continues this behaviour and as long as there are people out there who aren’t aware of her actions, or as long as there are people out there who believe her claims that she’s the victim of bullying by the riders she targets, it’s fair to keep bringing it up and commenting on it.

[Angela_Freda]

@BigMama1

NP seems to have stopped falsely advertising his credentials and harassing people online, so he has more or less faded back into oblivion, as it should be.

SW continues to defame, bully and harass riders on a nearly daily basis from her personal page as well as the DH one. These are just the latest examples: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto…3&id=673030262

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto…3&id=673030262

I think as long as she continues this behaviour and as long as there are people out there who aren’t aware of her actions, or as long as there are people out there who believe her claims that she’s the victim of bullying by the riders she targets, it’s fair to keep bringing it up and commenting on it.

I hope you haven’t spoken too soon… in a “hold my beer” way.

[AnotherRound]

@Angela Freda

I hope you haven’t spoken too soon… in a “hold my beer” way.

LOL .

[enjoytheride]

@BigMama1

NP seems to have stopped falsely advertising his credentials and harassing people online, so he has more or less faded back into oblivion, as it should be.

SW continues to defame, bully and harass riders on a nearly daily basis from her personal page as well as the DH one. These are just the latest examples: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto…3&id=673030262

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto…3&id=673030262

I think as long as she continues this behaviour and as long as there are people out there who aren’t aware of her actions, or as long as there are people out there who believe her claims that she’s the victim of bullying by the riders she targets, it’s fair to keep bringing it up and commenting on it.

I could care less what she does on her personal page. It’s one angry person with a small friends list and not her media platform with thousands of subscribers masquerading as educational.

[Scribbler]

The point about her personal page is that she is very open there about her intentions about some of her posts on DH. On her personal page she says that she is going to destroy certain riders because she doesn’t like them, basically. In other words, her personal page makes clear that her intent on DHub is to run a vendetta, not to offer balanced commentary on the nuances of good riding.

In this, she’s rather delusional since nobody takes DHub seriously.

I am unclear if the disgusting comments about the Canadian rider were on DHub or her personal page. I’m assuming DHub? I don’t think folks would be paying that much public attention to her personal page.

[Joanne]

Very good news about Vorst D. According to Lauren Chumley’s facebook page, he is doing great in Florida and scored 67% at Intermediare 2 at Global and won Grand Prix with 66%.

[BigMama1]

@Joanne

Very good news about Vorst D. According to Lauren Chumley’s facebook page, he is doing great in Florida and scored 67% at Intermediare 2 at Global and won Grand Prix with 66%.

Glad to see he’s in safe hands - he’s clearly worth his weight in gold!

[NJRider]

@BigMama1

Glad to see he’s in safe hands - he’s clearly worth his weight in gold!

Looks like he is still owned by the same person, but at least he is being ridden correctly. Maybe she is wanting to truly learn or selling.
Oh, I see from the trainer page he is for sale…

[BigMama1]

I’d have to win the lottery to buy him myself, but hopefully there will be no shortage of good homes with the budget to buy a horse of his talent and results.

[Angela_Freda]

@BigMama1

I’d have to win the lottery to buy him myself, but hopefully there will be no shortage of good homes with the budget to buy a horse of his talent and results.

Not to mention temperament. I just re-watched those rides, and that horse is a SAINT to not have dumped her or left the arena and he basically did the changes for her out of the kindness of his heart.
I can’t wait to see what he does in the future with correct, competent riding!

[pluvinel]

@NJRider

Looks like he is still owned by the same person, but at least he is being ridden correctly. Maybe she is wanting to truly learn or selling.
Oh, I see from the trainer page he is for sale…

Can you post a link? I tried to find his sale ad and failed.

[good_booie]

@Joanne

Very good news about Vorst D. According to Lauren Chumley’s facebook page, he is doing great in Florida and scored 67% at Intermediare 2 at Global and won Grand Prix with 66%.

With Shelley?

[BigMama1]

Sale ad https://www.facebook.com/507617302/p…5722850617303/

Scores were with Lauren Chumley in the national show at Global last weekend