Burghley

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@kmwines I’m watching it on my desktop, so it might be easier to see the links:

https://livestream.com/burghley/events/8799670

There are thumbnails to the right that have the different sections of cross-country.

[OverandOnward]

@Larksmom

I am counting, (it was a long morning), something like THIRTEEN FALLS!! And more horse falls than I have ever seen. Terrible course. …

And there would have been many more, if not for the collapsing fences.

Had this same course been presented back in the time before frangibles, even before safety vests, the results would likely have been more than one tragedy.

@findeight

…
But, really, do we need to try to trap lesser riders into bad decisions or fool good riders into mistakes, knowing the horse is the one paying the price for most of those mistakes? Is there some point somebody is trying to prove at the expense of trying to keep the possibility of serious injury or fatality at a minimum. Jumping is dangerous, we know that, why try to trap riders and horses into mistakes with serious consequences? And how are newer entrants supposed to get their experience and mileage without going through a string of broken horses?

Exactly.

When the people who actually believe in eventing are ready to step back from their support of this kind of course, this kind of sport, it’s time to re-think how this happens.

And put the sport, the riders and the horses in front of the massive egos of certain individuals who have far too much influence.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Have there been any updates about Buck’s health status? His fall looked horrible–the horse rolled completely over him, and even getting a foot caught on a standing horse’s stirrup can be hell for the ankle or knee. I know many in this thread have commented on it in real time, when it happened, but wondering if more was known now. (Ditto on any other health updates on any of the fallen riders).

Admittedly I knew the result before, but it seemed as if Vandiver needed to be urged forward a bit more than was customary, particularly through the water, even before he had his fall (I saw Doug using his stick–not harshly, and appropriately–but more than I’ve seen him do so with Quinn in the past).

I still need to watch Lauren and Bug, but from what I recall, the British commentators haven’t traditionally been a fan of hers in the past.

Glad to see Chris Talley and Bill complete such a difficult course on such a difficult track, so successfully. Completing is winning today, especially for first-timers on less experienced horses.

[Sticky_Situation]

I’m generally a big believer in both person freedom and personal responsibility, and I fully accept that people have variance in the level of risk that is acceptable to them — some riders are totally willing to accept the current level of risk at the upper levels, while other riders may feel that Training is too dangerous for their tastes. I don’t think either mindset is “wrong” or means you don’t care about your horses.

But still, I’m concerned for the future of eventing, especially with how mainstream animal rights mindsets have become, even within the horse community to some degree. I think if we don’t find more ways to prevent horse falls, the sport won’t be allowed to exist for a whole lot longer. I’m not sure exactly what the answer is … require all fences over a certain height to be fully frangible under fairly modest force? I can say what the answer is NOT, and that is “rider responsibility.” Sure, inexperienced and unprepared riders miss more often, but it’s definitely not only bad riders on unfit horses that fall.

[Sticky_Situation]

@Impractical Horsewoman according to EN, Andrea (Buck’s wife) had said on social media earlier that Buck and his horse were both ok.

[Texarkana]

@Impractical Horsewoman

I’m catching up on the livestream now.

I agree that some of the course’s perceived difficulty, compared to the Burghleys I’ve seen in the past is due to the fact that there were far more younger and less experienced horse-rider combinations than usual. I also felt that some of the most difficult and technical questions came up very soon in the course, resulting in horses and riders either getting tripped up before they were really in harmony and had a sense of the flow of the course, or getting weary early on, and then making poor decisions or simply running out of gas later. Even taking more of the long options–which was clearly the right move for many, especially those on less experienced or more impressed horses–can result in greater tiredness over a tough course and errors that the pairs might not normally make.

This was my reaction, too. While following this thread, I went on the livestream expecting to be horrified. I have a hard time watching XC on any advanced course, let alone Burghley. I wasn’t as horrified by the course as I expected. Instead, I felt like I saw a lot of combinations that looked too green for Burghley. For the most part, the experienced partnerships made it look very rideable.

When the names of all the USA riders attempting Burghley were released, I was shocked. I was quite worried about a few of them. Some of them proved me wrong today. This is not a criticism, but I will never understand the thought process behind tackling arguably the hardest 5* XC course in the world after a single successful run at the level. But I don’t ride at that level, will never ride at that level, so I don’t expect someone like me to understand.

Really hoping Doug, Buck, and Woodge (as well as their horses) are all ok. Many jingles for them!!!

[Equibrit]

Interesting read; https://eventingnation.com/riders-re…ountry-course/

[fordtraktor]

Wow. I watched for 3+ hours this AM but not everything. Waiting for replay for the rest. But I must have seen a very different Burghley than most here? I think the course was very good at limiting horse falls with the pins. Most of the falls I saw I predicted many jumps out. The pins fell a lot, thank goodness, because quite a few flat out missed at 1.3-4 m solid jumps. I felt it was a very good use of frangible technology and many of the jumps were forgiving, like the leaf pit this year. Gutted for Tim Price as his fall with RSB was undeserved. Xavier Faer was saying no for a few before they retired, sadly, because I love that horse.

i didn’t see any really serious falls. Plenty of falls but nothing I would consider am OMG moment including Buck’s. The horse didn’t land on him, it rolled over him fairly slowly, one could see that coming at the first upright. Horse was flat and you can run flat at an angled double vertical. I saw a lot of pretty slow motion rider falls, glance offs, etc.

i thought Sarah Bullimore would have gotten the flag penalty, compared to Will Coleman at Rolex. I guess the nuances are getting worked out still but I feel for his rant more now if she doesn’t get penalized. I didn’t see his ride today.

a little disappointed by our American contingent but we had a lot of pretty green horses at the level.

[Belowthesalt]

@arnikalm

Thank you. I’m sitting here thinking the exact same thing. And thanking god Americans were smart enough to throw a fit and get him out of here. So glad we don’t have freaking royalty.🙄

Well, he was a captain when he married the Princess, and still a captain when they divorced…so being connected to royalty apparently didn’t help him much. Still, it’s probably him. After all, Antony Armstrong-Jones married a princess and became Lord Snowden. Guess they liked him better than CMP.

[fordtraktor]

@initiate1987

I’m just really not a fan of all these massive open oxers in combinations. They should be used as galloping fences, not on turning tracks or in front of/in water. The moment the impulsion is taken away, even slightly, problems happen. There’s just no need.

ETA: When even the scopey horses are having problems getting over the Maltings (such as Deniro Z, who Liz admitted felt like had to make a huge effort to get over), the problem is not the horses/riders. I wish more would take the long route just to take some of the fright away.

Deniro Z did not have enough impulsion over the Maltings, I doubt Liz would disagree she underrode them. He was reaching for the stars and himself prevented a problem. She didn’t need more kicking over the fence, she needed more before it. Super scopey horse.

[arnikalm]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Yes. It’s the sort of thing that could make one wonder if they should support eventing. I know plenty of people in the horse world who rail against racing, saying it is (or fosters) horse cruelty. Eventers should not want that to happen with eventing.

With this level of carnage, will the course designer make any kind of statement or apology about the course? Will there be any kind of review as to why so many falls happened?

Haha, that will never happen! CMP is not known for his humility, grace, or introspection.

[Jealoushe]

@OverandOnward

For those who watched the full day, take a moment and consider what falls we would have seen had we not had the collapsing fences.

Today would have been far, far worse. I don’t even have time to review and count ALL of the potentially bad falls, with horse legs caught in the fence, that were saved by the forgiveness of the fences. And the actual falls that were softened for the same reason.

Because had those logs not given way when they did … the end of this day might have seen a tragedy, and maybe more than one. That’s not what I expect to see when I pull up a 5* live feed.

Regardless of the explanations / excuses for why there were so many falls, so many broken fences, none of those reasons excuse what I saw out there today. Whatever is wrong has to be fixed. This can’t be what happens at a 5*.

Some of the riding and near-misses had given reason enough for a rider to be pulled off course before they got into serious fall trouble. Why weren’t they? Why were they qualified at all? That needs work.

It seems that once a rider is out of the start box, no one is going to stop them for any reason. This “ride or die” attitude by some of the old school, get out there and don’t stop for anything, drive the horse into the ground if you have to, has to removed from eventing thought processes and policies.I saw it out there in abundance today. We had a very ugly round of that attitude last year after one of the more unpleasant eventing incidents, and the names who spouted off publicly supporting a negative horse welfare situation are hard to forget.

As for the jumps, an example is that, in past years, the Maltings open oxer was scary and one to get in the rearview even when it was just the one. A lot of top event horses have barely had the scope to get over it. So what was the point of adding second one on a left turn directly after the first one? It’s an open jumper jump, not a cross-country jump. What was expected from that, exactly, other than to trap some horses and riders?

There has to be a more effective set of brakes on course design oversteps. It’s unfortunate that is necessary, but clearly it is.

Of course the collapsing fences have to be more effective at saving horses and riders. Where the collapse didn’t happen, there were some awful falls that could have ended more badly than they did. But in addition to improving that technology, the need shouldn’t be nearly as high as it was today. And it isn’t just the collapsing fences that are adding to course difficulty, the course designer may be getting a break from the inflatable vests as well (Savannah Fulton).

Basically - If today is what eventing presents and continues to present, I will feel zero sympathy when the forces that we don’t control step in and do what eventing didn’t do, to protect both the horses and the riders who are making mistakes.

I support everything about the basic philosophy of eventing. I do not support what I saw on Burghley XC today. That is not what eventing is supposed to be, and not what I want to see or to follow.

Well freakin said.

you shouldn’t have to have the perfect stride the perfect jump or perfect scope over EVERY fence to get around. That’s nuts. That’s not Eventing. Eventers were bred to be scrappy because our big solid fences allowed for it. These don’t.

It would be different if the issues were run outs etc, but so many mistakes led to very scary and serious falls. Some horses I think will be hurt after this. Think of the mental baggage these horses will also face. It’s not right. We know courses can be built better (DdG), we need to ensure they are.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@Texarkana My feelings 100%. Some past Burghleys I have felt–Michael Jung skipping through on his top mounts aside–simply asked too much of horses and riders who had anything slightly less than his freakish talent and level of accuracy on his best mounts. This course I felt could have been better structured, a bit more forgiving and flowing at the beginning rather than being so determined to weed out horses at the beginning. But I didn’t think it was as crazy as the number of rider and horse falls suggested.

Interestingly enough, the less experienced American combinations I was most worried about had some of the best, or at least, most drama-free rounds!

@Sticky Situation Thank goodness! I was looking to see if he was clutching any specific body part on the livestream, but he just looked winded.

[Jealoushe]

@Texarkana

This was my reaction, too. While following this thread, I went on the livestream expecting to be horrified. I have a hard time watching XC on any advanced course, let alone Burghley. I wasn’t as horrified by the course as I expected. Instead, I felt like I saw a lot of combinations that looked too green for Burghley. For the most part, the experienced partnerships made it look very rideable.

When the names of all the USA riders attempting Burghley were released, I was shocked. I was quite worried about a few of them. Some of them proved me wrong today. This is not a criticism, but I will never understand the thought process behind tackling arguably the hardest 5* XC course in the world after a single successful run at the level. But I don’t ride at that level, will never ride at that level, so I don’t expect someone like me to understand.

Really hoping Doug, Buck, and Woodge (as well as their horses) are all ok. Many jingles for them!!!

The reasons the rides looked sketchy though… was because of the course design IMO. Huge max tables on 90 degree turns on XC on a hill? No.

Open corners to massive open white oxers? No. There are even studies showing white causes a crazy increase in horse falls!!

The experienced riders just knew how to “save” their horses. But almost all of them said the course was relentless. Inexperienced pairs should still be able to have a good ride.

Didnt Mark Todd won his first at age 18?

[fordtraktor]

@Divine Comedy

Did the open oxers and open corners have MIM clips or frangible pins? Frangible pins is the typical installation for that type of fence.

MIM clips were for sure on the gates, which is their typical installation.

Yes and they worked when called for.

i dont recall seeing any horse falls over the Maltings, definitely no rotationals when I was watching. I do agree the vertical gates didn’t deploy as much as they should but I also couldn’t believe how many riders flat out missed to them/didn’t have the horses back for a double of verticals. Including Buck. Who guns it to double verticals late in a course!?

[Jealoushe]

@fordtraktor

Wow. I watched for 3+ hours this AM but not everything. Waiting for replay for the rest. But I must have seen a very different Burghley than most here? I think the course was very good at limiting horse falls with the pins. Most of the falls I saw I predicted many jumps out. The pins fell a lot, thank goodness, because quite a few flat out missed at 1.3-4 m solid jumps. I felt it was a very good use of frangible technology and many of the jumps were forgiving, like the leaf pit this year. Gutted for Tim Price as his fall with RSB was undeserved. Xavier Faer was saying no for a few before they retired, sadly, because I love that horse.

i didn’t see any really serious falls. Plenty of falls but nothing I would consider am OMG moment including Buck’s. The horse didn’t land on him, it rolled over him fairly slowly, one could see that coming at the first upright. Horse was flat and you can run flat at an angled double vertical. I saw a lot of pretty slow motion rider falls, glance offs, etc.

i thought Sarah Bullimore would have gotten the flag penalty, compared to Will Coleman at Rolex. I guess the nuances are getting worked out still but I feel for his rant more now if she doesn’t get penalized. I didn’t see his ride today.

a little disappointed by our American contingent but we had a lot of pretty green horses at the level.

Are you ok with horses falling on xc?

[Larksmom]

YOU DIDN’T SEE ANY SERIOUS FALLS? REALLY? You didn’t see any falls at the Maltings? There were many. the thing is, I don’t really care if a rider falls off. they know why they are there and are supposed to be handling it. The horse doesn’t really have a say. If they don’t really like eventing, there is sj or dressage to try. I hate horses falling.

[Jealoushe]

Watch this if you can, its about 20 mins long. Pippa, Ollie and Mark Phillips talking candidly, about prep for today, and lots of talk on the course.

Definitely some similar sentiments to what we have discussed. To be honest I am confused about how I feel about the course now. I agree with some of what CMP said but I also don’t think riders were fully to blame.

Also some gossip about who Ollie was spending his night with :lol:

https://www.facebook.com/15057004496…547622?sfns=mo

[fordtraktor]

@Jealoushe

Are you ok with horses falling on xc?

It is going to happen. PHYSICS. If you are not OK with falls, don’t jump solid fences at speed. And yes, I have had quite a few horse falls over or after fences, and on the flat!, in my 30 year equestrian career.

I was impressed by the efficacy of the jumps, as I do not believe we had any serious injuries today, horse or rider.

i have no desire to event at upper levels. But I didn’t see much unfairness out there and I have been watching for a long, long time.

[fordtraktor]

@Larksmom

YOU DIDN’T SEE ANY SERIOUS FALLS? REALLY? You didn’t see any falls at the Maltings? There were many. the thing is, I don’t really care if a rider falls off. they know why they are there and are supposed to be handling it. The horse doesn’t really have a say. If they don’t really like eventing, there is sj or dressage to try. I hate horses falling.

I saw quite a few falls at the Maltings but none I would consider very serious, as in health-impairing. As COTH has shown this week, you can have a more serious rider fall when your school pony drops its head at the canter. And I have had a horse just trip and fall on me trotting. I classify serious as resulting in injury.