I feel like the Malting’s were a case of both athleticism and not reading the jump well. The ones that DID clear it looked like they had to make monumental efforts to get over all three jumps, especially the oxers. I think some misread it and started coming down too early, and some just didn’t have the gas in the tank to get over it.
If I recall correctly, didn’t the combination with open oxers have some problems at KY this year too?
Dom just posted this link to his entire XC ride (all the fences strung together, not just what was shown on the live feed.)
https://www.an-eventful-life.com.au/…se-trials-2019
Here is the full list, several more are available and some are pending:
Yeah, with raw data it wouldn’t be an issue, but time is my limitation right now. Amateur life is hard! The next time I have a slow day at work, I’ll dive in.
I wish these were just data sets that were open source. I know some of the eventing bloggers have a data set floating around (I’ve compiled what I’ve found here - http://marescara.com/equestrian-analytics-and-data-analysis - if anyone else has interesting info they’d like to add to the repository, let me know!) so I’ll see if that has the info I need to play with.
Good news…
Doug Payne posted a photo of Quinn after landing back stateside on Instagram. Someone commented hoping he was OK. Doug replied, saying he is all good and headed to Stable View & Fair Hill.
Thanks for posting this! Love how throughout you could hear Dom say “good boy” and at the end go on home “mate”! That pair is one of my favorites.
My point was, it was not too wide for these horses to clear. They all are athletic, otherwise they wouldn’t have made it past the first two fences. They wouldn’t even be here. The jumps, even in combination, weren’t outside of the scope of these horses.
The way it was set up, both where it showed up, and visuals, is what caused the issue in my non-expert opinion. Not the fact that it was too wide a “wide jump”.
The horses weren’t crashing because of lack of athleticism. They were crashing because the jump was not set up in a way where it could be read accurately; it wasn’t a fair or honest question for the horse, to my eyes.
Is that worded better?
Those white gates and that corner at the Maltings should be banned. Actually, I think that CMP should have to ride his courses, before anyone else does. Zara did not make it around, either. Does he consider her a bad rider, or her horse not up to snuff? :mad:
Thank you so much for that excellent analysis. I went back and watched a compliation of most of the problems (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIl8OJNlrc0, though I disagree with the use of the word “best” in the title) and identified multiple instances of horses doing exactly what you predicted.
You said “At a certain point when the angle of approach has grown above 47 degrees the jump starts to look like a simple vertical.” I believe at least three horses didn’t see the back rail of the corner until takeoff, or some a moment after: [LIST=1]
I can’t decide if Balham Mist (0:45) saw it but I think he was more like Arctic Soul. He came in on the left lead, seemed fully prepared to jump it, then a stride out he stutter stepped in trot and ducked out right. Ludwig was also coming to the fence well inside of the point of the corner and I think the horse realized it was facing something unjumpable.
Note that both horses that I believe saw the width were able to duck out in time – all three horses that appeared not to notice the back rail came down on it in some way.
Good catch. I didn’t notice day-of, but looking back at it, I 100% agree that Doug Payne has taken Landsafe and intentionally executed that training at 8:28. I wish he didn’t have to, but fascinating to see it kick in.
I also noticed that Buck did exactly what I have been taught to do if a foot is ever caught in the stirrup – roll onto your belly because that changes the angle of your foot/ankle so it will slip out. (And get your arms up to protect your head if the horse is moving, which his thankfully stopped after a step or two.)
Thank you for doing the work involved here. Haha, you remind me of RAyers.I would bet that very few course designers, especially CMP, have ever considered doing just that. They most probably have learned by doing and watching other riders/designers. Which leads to more intuitive thinking about how it will ride instead of designing based on actual physics.
“The larger point here is that we need a hard reset on what exactly is the intent and purpose of these breakaway elements. If the idea is to let the horse crash through the fence, I’m all for putting proper showjumps out there rather than tree trunks and utility poles.”
Thanks, Jer. This.
“huge white airy jumps” Actually when reading that my mind immediately thought that those attributes , except the huge part, have nothing to do with athleticism and everything to do with the mental processes of the horse and rider. Ie; tricking them into seeing or thinking about the fence in a spooky way to put them off. Definitely will sort the wheat from the chaff, but also will definitely cause multiple misses and falls due to misreading, not athleticism.
One minor correction to my analysis on the corner and it’s angle. The optimum attack angle to minimize the distance was 50 degrees and not 47. I’ll stand behind the rest.
I didn’t watch any of the live stream, but I have been following the written accounts both here and on EN. I finally watched Dom’s ride yesterday–and congratulations to him and Bolly. However, there was one clump of white jumps arranged all together (which I assume were the ones in question). The entire area looked like a showjumping arena to me, and I would assume it would look like that to the average horse. I don’t think that the cross country phase should assume that the average horse, upon seeing what looks like a showjumping course, would immediately say to itself, “Nope, I’m running cross country and even if those look like SJ jumps they really aren’t.”
The cross country test is supposed to be fairly straight-forward, a messenger galloping from point A to point B and jumping over whatever obstacles he encountered.
I would also beware of a course designer who publically said that “the course even scares me.”
I’ve never ridden at this level, and frankly, my main goal is just to get back to BN – that will be my 5* someday.
But, that doesn’t stop me from being a student of the sport, and caring deeply about it at all the levels.
One thing that I think should be considered when determining how many combinations completed the course and tallying up horse and rider falls – there were a number of horses that triggered the frangibles, and a fence or two later, were retired. This showed me good horsemanship for sure, but I think they ought to be counted in the percentage when considering how many combinations were done in by the course – a) they would likely have been falls if the frangibles hadn’t deployed, and b) the collision with the fence was stiff enough to cause injury to either the horse physically or mentally to where it could not continue.
I was reading Mike Etherington-Smith’s book on xc course design last year, and helping to put together some of the core ideas in it for someone else to write an article. These things stuck with me: [INDENT] [INDENT]In discussing the design of fences that have light and dark and shadow issues:
“Recognizing these considerations and knowing what to do to overcome them is important - there must be no confusion to the horses. We also need to ask ourselves whether we are asking fair questions, and if the answer is ever ‘no’ then changes must be made.” p. 49
“At all levels, the fences should look inviting and be ‘horse friendly’ with the thought that if a rider makes a mistake the horse will have every chance of sorting something on its own.” p. 52
“Clearly we must not produce fences that confuse horses, nor must we half-stride them (build combinations or related fences that are on incorrect distances) but there are also several fences that are not part of cross-country and some that are totally unacceptable because they ask unfair questions and punish a horse.” p. 72[/INDENT] [/INDENT]
5 star courses SHOULD be hard. Riders who make mistakes should receive penalties and perhaps retire or be eliminated. But, it seems that courses should be built that the mistakes result in run outs or refusals. Not fences that fool horses into believing that they are bounces, or that the fence is solid and can be banked.
In any event, I thought this information was interesting and it came to mind as I watched the live stream on Saturday. Too many horses were fooled on the course, and I was super thankful for the frangibles. But I did keep in mind that they weren’t knocking down SJ poles or styrofoam logs – what they hit could, and may have, caused severe injuries. Top level event horses try their hearts out for their riders and are incredible athletes. There are some risks we cannot control for – but it seems to me that we owe it to them to do whatever we can not to trick them.
What is the force required to set off a frangible pin? I was rewatching some of the rides and thinking that some of the ones that set off pins, especially the ones over the oxer into the water, looked like they really didn’t tap it that hard but the pin came down. Obviously you want the pin to come down if it needs to, but I wonder if it came down too easily and if that could contribute to the horses not respecting the jumps enough to clear them when they are just poles like that.
To me, altheticism is equal part physical ability and acuity: together, the ability to physically react quickly (and correctly) to perceived circumstances.
Just saw an interesting quote from Tim Price re Ringwood Skyboy’s fall running through the water at the Lions Bridge - I’ll copy and post here:
"Burghley was a real roller coaster for me. I had the disappointment of falling under the Lions Bridge, thirty seconds from home on my defending champ Skyboy. It was an expensive mistake that I made.
It was a conscience decision I made to run into the water a little ‘free’, as I made the snap decision that if I took more of a balancing hold before entering the water, I would not have truly been in the hunt for the win. I just feel sorry for my horse who deserved more from his efforts. Good news is he’s absolutely fine and so am I.
The week was rescued by my less consistent mount Bango. He had a PB on the flat, backed up by double clear jumping and eventual fifth place. My tip for the week - roll with the punches and pounce on any opportunity that presents itself!!"
I’m presuming he meant “conscious” rather then “conscience”, but I guess maybe the use of conscience could be a little bit of a Freudian slip!
Interesting about Tim Price’s comments on his fall. In Ollie Townend’s interview, he said something to the effect of how he’d been told about Pippa’s stumble in that water, and so he intentionally took a bit of a hold on his horse and kept his head up as they were entering the water.
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