I think the bigger issue is relying on these pins to hope for no fatalities…
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I do know that the Euros had gates (they were shown on stream). Despite the adjustments, they still caused plenty of problems (2 refusals, 2 broken pins, and 1 rider fall). However, they notably caused no horse falls, and that was likely due in part to the appropriate use of frangible technology, which did activate several times. This is what I expect from course design. Questions that require accuracy and correct riding but do not punish the horse for errors on course. This was where the gates at the Euros differed from the gates at Burghley.
Euros fence analysis here (the gates were 10a and 10b): https://www.rechenstelle.de/media/fi…elfencefr3.pdf
He can take responsibility for the horse falls he caused by designing a question that relied on frangible technology to be safe, but then applying that frangible technology ignorantly and as a result, dangerously.
Even if the frangibles had worked as intended, I consider it wholly irresponsible to put a question on course today that you would not have designed before frangible technology existed. The technology exists as a last resort, not to create a show jumping course out of solid fences. It’s my opinion that he designed in this way, but if Ian Stark will publicly say he thinks CMP took risks he would not have previously, that’s good enough for me to consider it a fact.
That the frangibles did not work as intended was due to pure ignorance. It is the responsibility of the course designer to understand his tools. We have had scientifically literate posters who are not course designers come forward to explain the flaws in the application of MIM clips to angled gates. If they understood the error through pure recreational interest, I refuse to accept that “nobody knew why”. It is his job to know why. Instead, he apparently sent people out there as an experiment. That is negligent, dangerous, and I hope he is counting his lucky stars that no one died. How someone can justify being so reckless as to not understand the tools of their trade, I’ll never know. That he didn’t even have the grace to apologize is about what I expect from him, at this point.
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They did a good job getting around, just like at Kentucky.
However, Chris Talley should retire this horse from this level of competition now. Or last week.
The horse is at the very end of his scope at this level - perhaps past his scope, as it seemed at Burghley. All those banged stifles do mean something and at some point, it might mean you don’t stay upright or the horse gets seriously injured.
Just because a horse will try its heart out and go beyond its capabilities in order to get around, it doesn’t mean you should ask it to do this repeatedly.
Well done to Chris for getting to this level and having success. Now hopefully he can get another horse with more quality and have a long career at the top levels.
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My comment about jak my style was driven after looking at he and buck’s fei record. 1 CCI3 and 2 CIC3 in 2017. No FEI results for 2018 or 2019 until KY. Usea has some advanced runs this summer. Just seems like an untested pair to take all the way over for a known tough course.
The horses in the top 5 that it was their first 5 had much more extensive 4* and 3* experience
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How are you calculating these percentages? Im not saying I dont believe you, I am curious what the equation is to get these percentages. Seems fascinating.
Seems like she is just dividing the number of clear rounds by the total number of rounds.
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Oh wow, now I feel REALLY dumb. Nobody tell my employer. LOL.
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There were other issues, also. Many 1978 competitors said that if The Serpent had been the 9th or 10th fence on course, the carnage would have been less. Instead, it was something like 25-26-27 out of 33 obstacles and the horses were just plain tired. Added to that, Kentucky in September - It was something like 88 degrees and 90% humidity. I was there and it was not pleasant.*. One of the main reasons “Rolex/Landrover/Kentucky 3-Day” was moved to April.
*Side note, though. Cambridge Blue, who had been a favorite to win at the Montreal Olympics but was withdrawn prior to the Olympics due to an injury, finished 2nd at the 1978 World Championships in Kentucky. He had one stop cross-country - got off line at Ft. Lexington. I have no idea where Watson conditioned or how long he was in the States prior to Sept. 1978, but Cambridge Blue came off the cross-country looking like he was ready for more. One of the few horses who handled both the heat and humidity, where as Might Tango looked about ready to collapse.
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One more note about Cambridge Blue. Wasn’t he ridden by Sam Watson’s dad?
Is there really a correlation between lack of clears and falls for this Burghley…?
It took some of the best XC horses and rider pairs out.
Some of the pairs that fell this year were genuinely surprising, don’t you think?
How about Vandiver?
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Yes, he was. I probably should have included that info. When he cleared the last oxer in stadium for a clean round, he hugged his horse around the neck while he was still in the air.
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I personally don’t second guess riders. Buck is damn experienced and it wasn’t his first Burghley. Horse has been running advanced since 2017 initially with a less experienced rider. It ran around a very tough FHI to finish 6 with Buck and several other 3*…was ready to run at KY after two very good Advanced runs (not FEI) this spring, including winning one…but ones with rock solid xc. He had a good prep to head over (even if Buck may not have) but based on his record…I could totally see why Buck might think the horse would be good for Burghley. And they did look good…other than the gates where his fall was very similar to others there.
I hate the armchair quarterbacking of this forum.
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Eventing is a pro sport. Armchair quarterbacking is a right of every fan of every sport. As armchair quarterbacking goes, what goes on here is pretty mild compared to other pro sports.
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I never said buck made a bad decision or an illogical one, just that it was an unusual choice. Overall I think buck does very right by his horses as evidenced by how long they hang around with him at the top levels. Just an observation not a condemnation of his choice.
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Bumping this thread.
Heels Down Happy Hour Podcast had an interesting bit on Burghley fences.
Listen here: http://www.horseradionetwork.com/sho…wn-happy-hour/
Doug Payne went to the TD and expressed concerns over the gates, for various reasons. The TD and others apparently told him, nope, they were fine and left them in. The fences are here, number 16 https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/feat…-course-695701.
There were 3 horse falls, 1 pin fault, and another elimination (EUR) not sure what that code is. Here are the fence results http://www.bdwp.co.uk/bur/19/
What is the point of having a Safety Commitee, a rider safety rep, or the likes if the course designers and TDs just choose to ignore. If someone were killed at that fence that day, they would have blood on their hands.
Dougs experience https://useventing.com/news-media/ne…d-of-governors;
Doug graduated with a mechanical engineering degree from Rochester Institute of Technology, the background of which makes him a valuable member of the USEA’s Course Design and Fence Construction Safety Task Force.
Doug is such a valuable member of the equestrian community. He is not just an incredible rider, but clearly a great horseman who also cares about the future of our sport.
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Capt Mark Phillips already has blood on his hands from Burghley in 1999 (Simon Long, at a killer fence that caused serious injury to others).
So what’s a little more blood then?
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if anyone missed seeing Burghley, RIDE TV will be showing it on OCT 25 I think. Check your listings.
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The statistics about those gates are bad enough as is, but the thing that struck me about the gates is that they were well into the course.
By my quick and dirty count:
64 pairs went out of the start box
23 had no jumping faults
10 finished on a number
Of the remaining 31 pairs, only 5 made it past fence 16. Four were eliminated at fence 16. That leaves 22 pairs - slightly over a third of the field - that didn’t get to the gates. Thinking about what the toll of the gates could have been if some of those pairs had encountered them is what blows my mind.
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I was SO pleased to hear about this on Heels Down Happy Hour.
Most (including another podcast with two hosts I would have expected better from) have been dismissive- “Well it IS Burghley” “The best riders were at Europeans” “Falls were inexperienced pairs who didn’t belong there.” It’s almost like they are afraid to speak up. What may be even more terrifying is that they actually believe these things.
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Right! I have mad respect for Jess Payne. She is always totally open and honest about things, way more honest than the average pro. Both the Paynes are a huge asset to Equestrian sport.
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