Bush opens up a can of whoop a$$

[Erin]

Taliban Stirs on Anti-American Sentiment (ABCNEWS.com)

By Sayed Salahuddin

KABUL (Reuters) - Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s ruling Taliban, faced with a U.S. ultimatum to hand over Osama bin Laden (news - web sites), said on Friday that they would not do so without evidence that the Saudi militant was involved in attacks on U.S. targets.

Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban ambassador in neighboring Pakistan, told a news conference there that in line with a recommendation from Muslim clerics in Kabul bin Laden would be asked to leave Afghanistan and not forced to go.

President Bush (news - web sites), addressing the U.S. Congress earlier, rejected the clerics’ intended compromise as inadequate and told the Taliban to hand over bin Laden and his lieutenants or share their fate.

We are not ready to hand over Osama bin Laden without evidence,'' Zaeef said, when asked if Kabul would extradite him to the United States. Thursday's recommendation from the clerics, he added, was a suggestion… and not a decision by a judge.’’

Ordinary Afghans in Kabul expressed bitterness at Bush’s response to the clerics’ olive branch and predicted that it would unite the people behind their Taliban rulers.

The clerics announced their compromise in an edict, which called for Muslims worldwide to join a jihad or holy war should the United States attack Afghanistan.

Bush said on Thursday he wanted the Taliban to hand over both bin Laden and senior members of his al Qaeda organization, close their training camps and release all foreigners held by the Taliban – apparently a reference to eight aid workers on trial for allegedly promoting Christianity.

``These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. The Taliban must act and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate,’’ Bush said.

Bin Laden faces earlier charges of masterminding the bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa in 1998.

BITTERNESS

Ordinary Afghans said Bush’s rejection of the clerics’ edict indicated the United States wanted to fight Islam.

``We don’t like or support the Taliban or Osama, but American’s policy after the ulemas’ (clerics’) decision is clearly an indication that this sole world superpower wants to fight against Islam as the Taliban claimed,’’ said a grocer.

``The U.S. should revise its stubborn decision and no more bring about a situation whereby youngsters like me join the Taliban against the devil America,’’ he added.

The council of clerics convened by Taliban ruler Mullah Mohammad Omar ruled that bin Laden should be asked to leave Afghanistan ``whenever possible,’’ apparently leaving the timing up to the Saudi-born multi-millionaire.

``The U.S. has decided to attack Afghanistan and will not accept whatever flexibility the Taliban show. We are sad about the U.S. line and really condemn it,’’ said an Afghan university student.

He called for Washington to see if bin Laden actually does leave the country, saying that if the Taliban were not serious, Afghans would back the U.S. position.

``But without any discussions, rejecting it means imposing its stupid policy on us. Without any deliberation about the issue and then attacking will rally support behind the Taliban and with this the U.S. is laying an axe to its own leg,’’ the student said.

Neighboring Pakistan’s military ruler Pervez Musharraf has pledged to help the United States.

But Zaeef predicted that Pakistan, one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban, would not join any U.S. attack on Afghanistan.

Pakistan’s foreign minister, Abdul Sattar, said the Afghan clerics’ recommendation was ``significant but not a giant step.’’

Afghans said Washington should have shown more understanding.

``People are fleeing because of the U.S. attack and when the Taliban somehow want to provide a type of opportunity to avoid it, America turns it down. I condemn it,’’ said a pharmacist.

``The decision of the ulema can be tested first and if not implemented, then you decide about the next move. The U.S. is itself a terrorist and despotic government,’’ he added.

Bush said on Thursday the evidence the United States had gathered all pointed to bin Laden’s organization as responsible for the September 11 attacks and that by ``aiding and abetting murder, the Taliban regime is committing murder.’’

Australian officials said on Friday the Taliban reported moving the eight detained aid workers – two Australians, four Germans and two Americans – to an unknown ``safer location’’ elsewhere in Kabul.

The foreign aid workers and 16 Afghani staff of German-based Christian charity Shelter Now International were arrested in early August. The charges could carry the death penalty.

The detainees appeared well and in good spirits, the spokeswoman said, quoting a Pakistani delegation that visited them on Wednesday.

[This message was edited by Weatherford on Sep. 21, 2001 at 02:52 PM.]

[Kellybird]

I agree it was philosophical…although I think it was more of a discussion of how to criticize than anything else.

Ilona~jihad is not a ‘bad’ word. DMK probably used it because she guessed it would get your attention. And it did. I find your reaction to her choice in vocabulary very contradictory to your [and JumpHigh’s] critical message regarding everyone else’s good-natured nit-picking of President Bush’s speech. If you are going to criticize her use of a word, please don’t turn around and snap at others for making similar comments.

Thanks. I’m done…my favorite tree needs a hug.

~KBird

[jparkes]

“SoDamn Insane”… I love it! True to those words indeed!
As for you, I hope you are in a safe area where you can find shelter and peace if all hell breaks loose.
As for what I’ve been reading on other boards, it appears that there is action already taking place. Not by the US, but by groups not supported by anyone.
Peace be with you…and your horse!

[pt1]

No, DMK, I don’t think you’ve been clear. Maybe it’s a failure of comprehension on my part, but so many posts (not just your) seem to fall into some fuzzy dream somewhere between a Peacable Kingdom and Kumbayah - with much derision of the notions of Constitutional government (other than freedom of speech,) individual rights and individual responsibilities. So I’m baffled as to just what sort of political and social system some of the (assumed) younger posters favor - and BTW, I was born after 1941 but before 1960, so who knows what generation that is!

I’m not posting my request to attack anyone, but in genuine curiosity.

[DMK]

I think you’ve got it Duffy!!

Hey, vineyridge - I’ve heard less plausible theories!

[M_O_Connor]

On the undergound banking system that is going to make tracking Bin Laden’s money very difficult…

NY Times 10/3: Ancient System Moves Money Globally

Now to check out DMK’s Janes link…

[M_O_Connor]

Whatever IlonaE–my name appears in EVERY post, because my screen name is my name, so…I guess I still don’t get it–far as I can see you’ve thrown insults far and wide and not your name in sight…Snowbird, I’m happy to have you explain to me in detail the things I just don’t understand, and I agree that without an effort to see things from different viewpoints, minds simply cannot be moved—I respect immensely your ability to remain here and continue to give us the benefit of your perspective; longevity and the abiltiy to impart wisdom to those who are more youthful is a wonderful quality, but as I’ve stated before, I don’t appreciate being patronized in a condescending manner, and I don’t imagine others do either…

As for those who are worried about my budget–well, thanks…It isn’t really that bad, but partially so because I’ve never had any compunction about slamming down the hatch on the money box when reserves sink below acceptable levels…what with the new truck and trailer this year, I really think I have already made my contribution to the economic engine!

The thing is that economics is a baffling and inexact science–efforts to control economies are wont to have unforseen consequenses that stymie the experts time and time again…sure it makes sense that if we all stop spending, the ripples will spread and people who make the things we aren’t buying will eventually lose their jobs…yet, if we overextend ourselves and then have the bad fortune to experience a subsequent drop in income, we might find ourselves in really hot water. Terrorists aside, the economy was not in great shape going towards the end of the summer–economists in government and media alike were scanning the horizon for any sign of an impact from the tax rebates most received in July and August. There wasn’t much in evidence–either people were banking the rebates, or paying their bills; they weren’t flocking to the malls…capital markets were already softening in response to the burst dot.com bubble. When times at home are tough, or to in good times to safeguard against the impact of a softening domestic market, it makes sense for a country to look past its borders and see where else it can do business–this is the logic that led to the creation of the European Union, and NAFTA. This is an area that has been the subject of extensive debate among American workers–who, no matter what wages they believe that they are entitled to (or may need to earn to keep pace with the cost of living here in the USA) are nearly always basing purchasing decisions based on issues of price and quality (lowest price for the highest quality)…thus, the tendancy of manufacturers to close up shop here and produce goods in countries where labor costs are low…until labor costs worldwide strike a balance, production will always shift to locations where costs are lower…and there is a long way to go before wage equity is acheived. Just notice, next time you are out in the mall, where each item on the shelf is manufactured, sewn together, or assembled…The US economy is now driven far more by the service sector than by manufacturing–you actually have to think a bit to decide how to go out and buy an item that will actually have an impact on US jobs.

The importance of levels of political and economic stability in far flung areas of the world becomes more evident when one considers how intertwined the economies of all countries have become. The debts of countries struggling with poverty and backwardness is also a factor that drags at the rest of the world economy–check out the Jubilee 2000 website to explore the subject of 3rd world debt from the point of view of those who are trying to persuade Western governments to forgive debts and their reasons for doing this.

Re books–bedtime reading is a fantastic pastime–I vote we elect DMK to lead us in an Oprah-style reading club; winter is coming, short days long nights–we could enrich our minds beyond all reason through the COTH who would have thought it?

[Snowbird]

I think if we focus and stay on course this can be a really good area for discussion. But, I agree with Ilona this is not the time to second guess the President and the troops at risk. I think we can cease the seelf aanalysis of this country and compare it to what’s out there trying to pull us down to their level.

Who was it that posted we should drop food to the Afghans? Looks like Washington was reading our BB and agreed it was good idea. They’re doing it right now with medicines too. They said they would fly in lower to get closer to the territory occupied by the Taliban but right now the planes are flying high so they’re pretty far into the country. Maybe God will hear our prayers and one of the boxes of food will land right on bin Laden’s head and squash him like a bug.

Yes! please let’s try to be supportive of the decisions being made and the action being taken. After there is peace again you’ll all be unmusseled and free to complain as much as you want. Just for now let’s try to realize how blessed we are with our lives in freedom and relative safety. During World War II, families had to send their children away to keep them safe.

Think what it must have been like in London being bombed every night and for kids who grew up in bomb shelters.

[pt1]

G.Washington warned the U.S. against “entangling alliances” long long ago.

How 'bout we
*quit sending food abroad or buying food from abroad until all our citizens have adequate food
*preserve our agricultural lands, and indeed our agri-culture.
*insist that companies bring our heavy industry home and create jobs right here
*quit selling any form of arms abroad
*quit supporting anyone else’s government. It’s their countries. Let their people run them.
*acknowledge that our form of government and our culture is not right for every country
*forbid foreign ownership of our businesses, esp. those essential to nat’l security & defense (I’m talking stocks here, not the nice Indian gentleman who runs our local quick-mart.)
*overhaul our educational system
*thoroughly screen those immigration visas - starting with student visas. Make sure that people here on temporary visas go home when their visas expire.
*forbid people in government or defense positions to own stock in other countries, where a conflict of interest could occur
*basically, do business on a cash basis with the rest of the world without trying to influence their governments, their religion or their thinking.
*form temporary alliances for mutual benefit when appropriate, with a time limit, not long-term entangling alliances that come back to bite us in the butt
*provide financial incentives to encourage manufacture of most goods at home, and to encourage purchasing home-produced goods from CD’s to t-shirts to cars to horses.
*quit selling our intellectual properties abroad. Let our customers buy our products, not the means of producing them.
*maintain diplomatic, business and cultural ties with countries so long as they do not attack us diplomatically, financially, culturally or physically.
*quit being the striking arm of the U.N. Let the other nations in the U.N. take their fair share of the responsibility.

etc. etc.

Then, maybe, we could rebuild our infrastructure, deal with our domestic problems in an intelligent fashion with the money saved from foreign aid to assist in the process, look to the education, employment and life quality of our own citizens, and deal in a business-like but basically neutral position with the rest of the world.

The Rattlesnake flag says “Don’t tread on me” - a good motto, but we need to remember that the rattlesnake will defend itself but not go looking for trouble.

Before the combined rage of the thread descends on my head, remember, the ideas outlined above work quite well for Switzerland, Sweden and other countries too. Might work just fine for us.

Zipping flame suit now!

[HeyYouNags]

But isn’t one of the main hang-ups health care reform stalls in the U.S. is because any meaningful reform will have to include discussion of health care rationing? For example, we would have to talk about who could receive some of the more expensive procedures, like organ transplants. Or how much we were willing to spend when someone’s fertility treatment results in the birth of 7 or 8 critically premature infants.

Even liberal tree-hugging me has trouble with that one. In theory, I could set limits. But if it were my elderly parents being told “no”, things would look a little different.

Anyone know how the Japanese are able to control costs?

[Robby_Johnson]

That’s hysterical. For some reason, people always think I’m from England. I always have to correct them with, “no, Alabama.”

InWhyCee … Arkansas in the house? Really? Where? Do you ever come back here? If so, you must “holler at me.”

Portia - I’ll share Tony Blair with you.

Robby

[Erin]

Gross how, Jumphigh? The Clinton critics here have absolutely no problem bringing up oral sex repeatedly. So why is it gross when I mention it?

[Ann]

I have a confession to make–I too pronounce “terrorists” as “terra-ists”. I think Bush and I are saying it correctly—it’s the rest of you that have got it wrong…

[dogchushu]

SLW, I don’t watch CNN enough to know what they’re saying these days. All I know is what I read on their Web site which I wouldn’t imagine they’d make up. But I don’t think a reputable paper like the WSJ would knowingly perpetrate a hoax. (I LOVE the WSJ–just haven’t gotten mine this week since our newspaper delivery at work is screwed up right now.)

Maybe someone who wasn’t in a position to dictate network policy spoke out of turn. Or maybe it was something they were considering that they didn’t implement. Or the CNN spokesperson was referring to a specific instance and it was assumed to apply to all broadcasts. Or CNN thought they’d implement the policy, got negative reaction, and changed their minds.

[Heidi]

I, for one, love le Carre.

Speaking of mysteries, love Ruth Rendell, her pseudo Barbara Vine, P.D. James, Patricia Highsmith, Minette Walters. It’s odd, isn’t it, that women also dominate this often-macabre genre?

[jparkes]

…like a discussion on the situation at hand!

Anybody think we are in for a third WW?

Our congress all has gas masks, we read of smaller terrorist attacks happening all over the world, and biological/chemical warfare.

In my opinion, I think this could all possibly happen.

Anyone on this board thought about buying any guns for self defense? Anyone thinking about buying extra food for storage? How would you care for your horses if war were to break out? Or, do you think this is not a big deal at all?

Come on guys, let’s stop the bickering and let’s disuss ideas that may help all of us get through the rough times that lie ahead for our country and the world as a whole. I don’t know how many of you have given any thought into this situation, but it could get bad…real bad.

Or, then again, you may just want to ignore it like a bad toothache and hope it will all go away…

[halfhalt]

at the risk of being accused as one of those people who are always patting other people on the back (i confess, i do do that from time to time, simply because i am often impressed at how well-articulated these bb comments can be and i couldn’t express it half as well myself, so why not pat someone on the back?!)…anyway, here i am patting you on the back for a very intelligent comeback re the European perspective on Clinton and Bush.

And as for Fabio, i have to agree with you, he doesn’t turn my crank either, even though at 48 and hence 3 times your age, i am officially an old geezer…!

[ohnowwhat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horsluvr:
Kreswyn. Such insightful and mature insights re the president. I wish I had such a deep perspective. I was so ignorant as to focus on policy and personal integrity. Thank you for pointing out all those very important physical limitations that I had overlooked. I always thought beauty was skin deep and ugly went right to the bone. You have driven that point home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Driven the point home? Amen to that.

[halfhalt]

You guys are being awfully brilliant considering it is a friday…

[Magnolia]

I think the reason that the US has high infant mortality rates compared to Sweden etc. is because it has some high poverty rates, and even if you aren’t impoverished, it doesn’t necessarily mean you can afford health care.
If you don’t have insurance and can barely afford food, rent and transportation, you may not be able to afford prenatal care. There are many many people in this country barely getting by, but not so poor as to qualify for medicare. They work in stores, restaurants, clean houses and motels and work other low paying jobs. In Sweden, the govt. provides them health care, but in the US, it comes out of their pocket (if they can afford it).

There really aren’t easy solutions - we either need to stay status quo, and hope people will move up the latter, require employers to pay a living wage, or we need to cover these “social” costs as a society. Basically, we are getting away with paying people less than they need to survive, and sooner or later, we need to make that up, be it thru higher medical costs because of high numbers of people not being able to pay bills, higher taxes, or higher prices for goods and services that underpaid people provide (or we just need to accept the social problems like high rates of infant mortality as a cost of our “system”).

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.