Bush opens up a can of whoop a$$

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jparkes:
Anyone on this board thought about buying any guns for self defense?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t think there is anything a gun would do to save my life if another band of suicide attackers lands a plane on my university office building. I should think that would be akin to having a fly swatter on hand to ward Godzilla off. I would bet that more people end up using their new guns to “defend” themselves against the local Lebanese shopkeeper, or to shoot their girlfriends, than for self defense in the event a terrorist comes knocking on their door.

After I posted, I realized that there are probably plenty of Republican posters participating who are indeed cordial…what’s that saying? Squeaky wheel gets all the attention?

Betsy (in Md.)

Please Snowbird, there is a big difference between going on Jerry Springer versus seeing a trained therapist or not feeling as if you have to hide the mere fact that you have a problem from your family. No more generalizations indeed!

Interesting point about Vietnam and Korea. While I agree that this is a different kettle of fish, has their been a formal declaration of war?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pt:
G.Washington warned the U.S. against “entangling alliances” long long ago.

Before the combined rage of the thread descends on my head, remember, the ideas outlined above work quite well for Switzerland, Sweden and other countries too. Might work just fine for us.

Zipping flame suit now!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I sure can’t find fault in your voicing your opinion, these are the kinds of posts I find interesting. On some levels I agree with you, but I think it is WAY too late; we are in too deep. America is TOO free and set in free markets and capitolism.
Betsy (in Md.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

Our system of health care is clearly unhealthy in every possible aspect of the system. I doubt you will find too many people who are in the field to disagree with that statement. Nobody has any clue how to fix it to even the partial satisfaction of most of the parties, and most - myself included - are unsure about socialized medicine as a workable aspect for this nation. Still, Houston, we have a problem…

As for rationing health care, it is indeed an uncomfortable thought, but to be quite honest, right now every American has their health care rationed. For the uninsured, the limits are obvious, for the insured, there are maximums on lifetime or annual coverage, limits on procedures and drugs, certain cutting edge care (experimental) is rarely covered, many optional procedures (cosmetic) are not covered and so on. They are just the limits we are familiar with, rather than the unknown limits.

OK - back to the real subject before Erin comes and beats this post with a big stick <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DMK,

This link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/10/business/10MEDI.html , does explain one reason why our system is unhealthy. Follow the money, but you already know that! I have not seen a system of socialized medicine that I could support. Do you have experience or links that would shed more light on the subject? I’m only familiar with the Canadian system.

You are right on about rationed health care. It does already exist. My mother was lucky, her experimental chemotherapy was approved by the insurance company. Even with a generous health care plan my parents spent $60,000, out of pocket, for her treatment over a course of 3 years.

SLW- dodging Erins stick!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Hey, I’m not arguing… it was a very good speech. It just took me a while to figure out that terra = terror. Once I got that figured out, it was smooth sailing.

Seriously, I did like the speech a lot. Very good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I’d rather listen to him then some conniving, insincered jerk who thinks he’s fooling everyone.

I thought it was a great speech…and I never listen to SotU speeches!

We round up all the pacifists and send them over to negotiate with the terrrorists and each one we send a bag of groceries!

magnolia, I belive that basically the State Department is responsible for coordinating all the information and intelligence gathered, disseminated, found out and just plain guestimated by Military Intelligence, the CIA, the FBI and the NSA. And the buck stops with Colin Powell, who is a good man for the job.

And there are lots of people employed by our government who do nothing more than provide analysis and intelligence about various factions, countries and political groups around the world (one wonders if Ilona approves of these government employees?) All in all, our government has a good grasp of what has been going on. It’s the “what will happen” that is challenging. Sort of like riding the tiger’s tail, it’s a wild ride, but god help you if you lose your grip.

AS for other country’s intelligence, we will (and are) using it as we speak. Certain countries are evaluated for a) accuracy and b) ability to not leak info that we provide in order to “build the picture”. For example, it is suspected that the reason bin Laden escaped from the 1998 bombings was that he was tipped off by his sources inside of Pakistan’s intelligence office. Now I doubt we will ever know the truth of that statement, but there have been reports in the last few days about how we will “vet” any info we share with Pakistan…

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK: Blue Ridge - Pearson (if you love southern literature, you love pearson)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pearson, as in T.R Pearson, as in ‘A Short History of a Small Place’? A genius!!!

Heidi is hung up on punctuation because she’s a comma-nist.

I guess earlier accusations were on target, and I do live in a fantasy world, since I mostly read fiction, except it’s the kind of fiction they made you read in college. Recently finished Native Son, which was written by a communist. Will I go to heck for that? I have been known to curl up with a scintillating animal health journal or text as well.

Y’all’s reading lists sound much more literate. Might have to get a copy of that Guns and Germs book, though.

I am really fed up with being urged to go shopping for the sake of my country, and the following is from a letter I wrote to a number of friends last night…

I think I will throw my radio under the wheels of a bus if I hear another news commentator or elected leader implore the American public to save the nation by getting out there to shop. It has finally happened–the deal has been sealed between the American identity and consumerism. “Don’t let the terrorists keep America down: go to the mall, take the kids to Disneyland!” So we are to return to the business of being American: amassing a collection of consumer products. Well for god’s sake, thousands of people are DEAD, and countless thousands more are mourning the loss of their friends or family members. The entire nation is wounded. And they want us to buy a new pair of SHOES? I can’t believe the crassness it takes to believe that pointless frivolity is an appropriate response to a national trauma.

I would like to think that, now that the country is paying attention to how the rest of the world sees us, and everyone has been very busy singing “God Bless America,” this is a fine opportunity to assert an American spirit that is not shallow and vacuous. So the economy needs our help to remain viable and healthy? Here are my suggestions for getting money into the system in life-affirming ways that are a better memorial to the dead and wounded than a bunch of new CD’s that nobody really needs:

Promote international understanding by supporting a scholarship fund that helps American students study abroad, or that assists international students studying in American universities. If you can afford it, create such a fund at your local university if it doesn’t already have one. Donate to Rotary International. Buy a newspaper subscription for the school library. Get yourself a subscription to a decent newspaper that offers comprehensive coverage of international news.

Make life better for people in your own community. Buy new pairs of nice socks for all the residents of the nearest nursing home. Get gift certificates for your child’s teachers. Buy a saddle and bridle for a handicapped riding program. Buy a new computer for the county’s rape crisis center or domestic violence advocacy organization. Donate to the community’s AIDS/HIV advocacy organizations–they would love to give their underpaid workers a raise.

Remember the critters. Call the animal shelter in your community and ask them what kind of food they use for their rescued animals, and show up at the shelter with a few hundred pounds of it. Buy several big buckets of horse treats for a large-animal rescue organization. Buy a membership to the nearest zoo–your money will pay scientists and naturalists who are doing the important work of preserving biodiversity around the world.

Art is the conscience of a culture. There are many underfunded grass-roots organizations that provide technical assistance to traditional artists–let your money boost their efforts to help marginalized artists get noticed. Donate to organizations like the Shoah Foundation, which is making art out of the stories of Holocaust survivors.

Give democracy a hand by purchasing a printer cartridge and stacks of paper, envelopes and stamps. Write letters to all the state and national-level representatives and senators you can think of advocating for campaign finance reform. Give money to your area’s third-party political candidates.

Get the idea? If our wallets are meant to be weapons, let’s use them to redefine a nation that is humane, community-minded and forward-thinking rather than a hollow monument of acquisitiveness.

[This message was edited by hobson on Oct. 04, 2001 at 11:31 AM.]

[This message was edited by hobson on Oct. 04, 2001 at 11:42 AM.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. O’Connor:
Terrorists aside, the economy was not in great shape going towards the end of the summer–economists in government and media alike were scanning the horizon for any sign of an impact from the tax rebates most received in July and August. There wasn’t much in evidence–either people were banking the rebates, or paying their bills; they weren’t flocking to the malls…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an off topic, but somewhat related question: I am part of the group that was supposed to be receiving my rebate notice, etc. at the end of September due to having a SS# that ended in 99. Now, I am more than happy to give it up (wasn’t expecting much anyway) but, I haven’t heard anything at all about what is supposed to happen now? Can someone fill me in if they know? Just curious…

Well, since you’re on the topic of veterans and how they deal with the stress of war I thought I’d include my grandfather’s story…unlike the others mentioned he was a veteran of WWI not WWII (he fought for England and became a father late in life.)

When he was still in his teens he was assigned to drive tanks on the front; dangerous because tanks were a target and the enemies would try to explode the whole thing by dropping a grenade through the top. He also was poisoned with mustard gas. (explanation of the effects from a history web site: “The skin of victims of mustard gas blistered, the eyes became very sore and they began to vomit. Mustard gas caused internal and external bleeding and attacked the bronchial tubes, stripping off the mucous membrane. This was extremely painful and most soldiers had to be strapped to their beds. It usually took a person four or five weeks to die of mustard gas poisoning.”)

He did fulfill his tour of duty and received medals for bravery, but his nerves were shattered. Of course, back then medical assistance available to veterans was strictly for physical and not psychological needs. He did recover in time and went on to live a normal life. I can’t imagine going through all he did at such a young age; I’m glad there’s a greater awareness today of the need to treat the after-effects of that kind of severe stress.

Probably the reason men don’t like to talk about it is because they are afraid of being ridiculed for not being manly enough to overcome their fear…I’m ashamed my father actually did just that when when my grandfather once mentioned having a breakdown as a result of his war experiences.

[This message was edited by Ann on Oct. 09, 2001 at 04:08 AM.]

Because money is all that matters and green is the color of my precious hemp.
Well, maybe gold, yes, I like that color too. And maybe it is better than green, because that’s what those eco-commies like you like. Green and Red. Yup, you are trying to subvert Giftmas by attaching your communist colors to it, so I can’t be associated with green or red, so gold it is. That’s my color!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

M.O’C - very clever - horse related AND related to the on-the-topic “Off topic” topic

Actually hospital billing is a creative sort of thing. All insurance carriers have contracted rates with their participating hospitals, and generally pay a flat rate, depending on severity of the case, for ER admissions, but it is unreasonable to expect a hospital to have a billing system that can handle hundreds of variations on billing (these case rates are a lot like snowflakes - you never see two the same ). So they just bill something called “Reasonable & Customary” rates, which are generally derived from national rate tables (HIAA or MDR, in case you cared ). Here’s the thing though - since NOBODY pays 100% of R&C, that number is sort of artificially high. The insurer then calculates how much they are supposed to pay, and you end up with a statement that said you paid $50, the insurer paid $200 bucks and there is $58,067 left unpaid, which then confuses the hell out of you and makes you run for the family lawyer or stop answering your phones. In truth, nobody expects anyone to pay $58,067…

Now when you go to a hospital that the insurer does not have in its network, the hospital sends that full R&C bill to the insurer (or to you, and you promptly pass out), who generally only pays 70-80% of it, and generally the hospital accepts that amount. They then write off the 20-30% and the write off goes into calculating their DSH share of their Medicare payment. Basically that write off helps increase the payment from Medicare, which of course, comes out of our tax dollars. Fun, eh?

As for anthrax or other bioterrorism issues, if it became a widespread threat I do see a concerted effort by our (not strong) public health system to address that issue, simply because there are some things that you cannot let go unaddressed. Basically, it would be far more damaging to the economy to lose any portion of the workforce (see Dengue Fever in Central America, Carribean Islands), than it would be to cover the cost of treating the ill people. And of course, once the government says it will treat the uninsured population it’s hard for them to a) not subsidize the insurers/doctors who are treating the insured folks or b) not treat them themselves.

Of course, you already knew that both increased our tax dollars and/or our premiums…

I just read the transcript and I have some problems with the following:

The terrorists’ directive commands them to kill Christians and Jews, to kill all Americans and make no distinctions among military and civilians, including women and children.

WHY ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN ALWAYS PUT TOGETHER IN THE SAME CONTEXT? THIS DRIVES ME NUTS!!!

God grant us wisdom and may he watch over the United States of America

WHY IS IT ASSUMED GOD IS A MAN,
also, why would the U.S. God protect us over al Qaeda’s God. This is not an issue between god’s, but between humans. Why are there so many lives lost in the name of religion?

I did appreciate all other aspects of the speech though and I was ready to fight it as I am a total lefty.

Pat Ness

As for you, Hobson, I’m sorry that you cannot understand what Christians believe.

Unlike agnostics and atheists, people who believe in God have to acknowledge that we are not a god. In other words, we believe there exists something much larger and more powerful that deserves our respect, love, devotion and worship. We recognize our weaknes as humans and choose to follow our creator instead of trying to make it on our own.
Also, those of us who believe in God KNOW that peace is not the natural state of human affairs. This does NOT mean we hate peace, but that we recognize the reality of humanity.

It’s ok that you choose to believe differently, but I admit I am sad for you. I also feel that you are the “pot calling the kettle black” in that you want freedom to believe or not to believe in whatever you want, but you resist the idea of fighting for that freedom.

And maybe I’m wrong, but putting down religious beliefs doesn’t indicate to me that you truly like your freedom…or do you only like freedoms deemed appropriate by you and any other folks that share your sentiments on the far left?

Hobson, although I disagree with you a lot, I do admire you for your willingness to be honest. No matter how poular or unpoular your statements, you never waiver.

I was thinking about the religion thing. Quite obviously it is an oversimplification to blame religious differences for the catastrophe. But I’ve noticed for quite some time now that even in mainstream Islam there is a fairly common thread of anti-christian and anti-jewish feeling of conspiracy against Islam. I would surmise that it’s something that traces its origin to colonialism-imperialism-modernization-globalization. Don’t know where I’m going with this thought other than to remark that it surely must be easy for fundamentalist fringe groups to exploit this way of thinking and garner recruits. Wish I could be more coherent about it, but I’m not having a very lucid day.

No kidding Charis - and as the Jane’s article discussed, Afghanistan has been a training ground for terrorists in many ways…

"The Afghan alumni

While not all saw combat, some 5,000 Saudis, 3,000 Yemenis, 2,800 Algerians, 2,000 Egyptians, 400 Tunisians, 350 Iraqis, 200 Libyans and dozens of Jordanians served alongside the Afghani mujahideen in the war. Between 1,000 and 1,500 of them returned to Algeria and formed the backbone of the Islamic radicals who are continuing to fight against the government in what has been a nine-year civil war that has claimed more than 100,000 lives. Those who returned to Egypt became valued members of the Gamaa Islamiya and the Gihad group, but their success was severely limited by arrest campaigns and several mass trials in the 1990s under the title of ‘the returnees from Afghanistan’. Some Egyptians, who saw that they would be imprisoned if they returned home, remained in Afghanistan or took refuge wherever they could. US authorities have said that as many as 200Afghan alumni settled in the New York/New Jersey area, some of them congregating around the New Jersey mosque where Omar Abdel Rahman preached."

pt - loved your statement on your beliefs - may I adopt them as my own? Pretty much summed up my beliefs! As for the books, may I recommend Guns, Germs and Steel along with Betrayal of Trust for starters? My bedside-reading-ego, notwithstanding, they are excellent books!

I grew up in the “third” world and I agree with you that first hand experience is invaluable. I lived in Pakistan and visited Kabul as a child.

Here’s my simple and naive outlook:
People there are very very hungry.
Mothers watch their babies die from measles and diarrhea.
Men and woman work from sunrise to sunset in back breaking labor and never manage to acquire land or property.
Families rise with despair and go to sleep with desperation.
The U.S government misguidely funds projects that have little or no benefit for the average citizen.
Terrorists are born of the philosophy that: “When you have nothing, you have nothing to lose.”