BUSHvsGORE re:Horse Industry

Gore, environmentalist? Check it out:
The Wall Street Opinion Journal http://www.opinionjournal.com/

Investigating Al Gore
The vice president, Armand Hammer and zinc. http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=65000067
Saturday, August 12, 2000

These talk about the zinc mining on his place in Tennessee. A brief quote, " It also seems that zinc from Mr. Gore’s property ends up in the cool waters of the Caney Fork River, an oft-celebrated site in Gore lore. A major shaft and tailings pond of the Pasminco Zinc Mine sit practically in the backyard of the vice president’s Tennessee homestead. Zinc and other metals from the Gore land move from underground tunnels through elaborate extraction processes. Waste material ends up in the tailings pond, from which water flows into adjacent Caney Fork, languidly rolling on to the great Cumberland.
Mining is intrinsically a messy business, and Pasminco Zinc generally has a good environmental record. But not one that would pass muster with “Earth in the Balance,” Mr. Gore’s best-selling environmental book. As recently as May 16, the Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation issued a “Notice of Violation.”"

Actually, if you want to read interesting and always funny political bashing from a long time (Democrat) insider, keep your eyes out for columnist William Klein. Often in the Washington Post and the Christian Science Monitor.

Will post some links when I find them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ponyperson:
Erin, who are you for?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No WAY am I answering that question! Besides, I’m the administrator, so I’m impartial!

I agree, Magnolia… if the people who didn’t need trucks or SUVs would stop driving them, I wouldn’t have to feel so guilty! Even though it was killing me when gas got up over 2 bucks a gallon in Arizona and I was driving 60 miles round-trip to the barn, I never complain about the price of gas… I know I pollute more than my fair share, so I just have to grin and bear it at the pump.

If I ever do get to own a car, I want one of those new hybrid gas/electic ones. You even get a tax break for driving one!

Bravo, Aly!!!

I’m copying that list and posting it around the building.

The moral of this topic…
Horses and politics just don’t mix.
We’ve all gotten off this topic to start off with, and it’s been a little disturbing to me to read the views of some of the posters. As some of you all grow older, and wiser, maybe you will realize that the government isn’t the next best thing to cotton candy. I have to wonder how many lives in this country never amounted to much because they became completely dependent on the government to live. People who have the mentality that government will take care of me, so why get off my lazy rear and go find a job? It’s sad that we let this happen, but government and lots of programs are to blame. That we can just tax the rich more to let John or Lucy stay home and watch their big screen TV all day. To help communities who have no electricity or running water or any sort of health care assistance, then maybe the government needs to step in. But how many communites in this country live like third world nations?
Do a little math in your head. Take a dollar that you earn and see how much of it you really keep. First of all, we have our income tax, you have your state tax (in some areas), you have your food tax, you have you property tax, you have your gas tax, you have your clothing tax. How much of that dollar is left to spend on your mortgage, your car payment, your groceries, your hobbies? NOT MUCH, becuse we are all having to fund all these wonderful programs that government does so well running!!!
Back to my original post on this topic…IT’S THE TAXES THAT WILL HURT US THE MOST!!! The more we are taxed the less we will have. And unfortunately, our horses will probably be the first to go. People have to care for their families first.
And Gore with all those programs he wants to start and increase, means more money out of our pockets to fund them!

That’s what I meant, Erin. You can use a shotgun to protect you and yours, but you can’t walk into a Wendy’s with it to blow away some innocent strangers because your wife left you and you ran out of Prozac.

That is also what I meant by “need.” I’m not trying to dictate “need,” except in a functional sense. You don’t “need” an automatic weapon to kill a deer or protect yourself or your property. And no one can say that the constitution protects people’s rights to own cop-killer bullets and other kind of overkill hardware.

On the other hand, the enforcement issue is a troublesome one, I will admit. BUT the problem is that the NRA et al. use it to defend their stance without proposing any solutions. For example, if Proposition 30 (?), the California proposal to eliminate jail time for first-time drug offenders (replacing it with mandatory counselling) can be proposed to change the way drug infractions are enforced, why can’t someone propose some way that would make gun infractions more enforceable? Maybe the enforcers need some “enforcing” themselves? I’d like to hear the NRA address that.

Well now, I still remember that ringing affirmation, “I never had sex with that woman”. I never heard GW deny that he hadn’t been the perfect kid. Apparently, a lot of people knew, and he never said he only sniffed the alcohol, he always admitted he did his share of boozing in his day and had learned his lessons. Did we need to hear everything, even what he did during a hazing in college. Wasn’t there another time where Bubba said something like well it was only a lie depending on what your definition of is “is”. Don’t you figure Gore might have asked what he was doing there in a Budhist Temple, especially when everyone started writing checks. And, when he quit Viet Nam to be a divinity student after 5 months (instead of the full tour) with his body guard isn’t that just a little smidgeon dishonest to claim you were a volunteer in the war and to imply you faced active duty. At least he wasn’t marching with the protestors in London, think we’ve had enough of the Rhodes Scholar type.

So the point is we have no saints running, no one is perfect and like the task of our judges we can can just try to figure out who is less bad than the rest. At least what GW did was on his own time and Clinton/Gore have done it cashing my paycheck on my time and in my house!

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 11-03-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Bush is the only one we can support. I am really tired of the “Government” telling me what I should eat, what I should do and deciding who should get benefits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don’t delude yourself into thinking that Bush will be any different.

This comment was made way back on page one, but I’m only now catching up with this great, great thread:

“I think if we made local government far more important, we’d be soooo much better off.”

LOCAL GOV’T!! Egad! Talk about a cauldron of vested interests, shady connections, breathtaking ignorance and sheer laziness! No, big government isn’t much better, but at least there’s a smidgen of a chance of getting a foot in the door and occasionally sneaking some common sense into a conversation or two.

BTW, the foundation for my extreme dismay over the suggestion comes from a stint covering local governments (and school boards) for one rural and one metro paper (in two different states at that). Consistently Appalling!

[This message has been edited by pwynnnorman (edited 10-22-2000).]

So right, magnolia. Gore at least realizes that the residents of Greece are not called “Grecians.”

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sannois:

God help this country with all the Liberals like you rockstar. So you like Socialism huh, bread lines and all that goes along with it. Say goodbye to all your freedoms. Forget your horses and your cars and everything that you take for granted. You are just the type they want. Don’t think for yourself the Government will do that for you, and they will. There is none so blind as those who will not see. Snowbird is right on.
A socialist is a person who believes that my right to my life and my property varies inversely with their need, however they choose to define it at anytime. If they feel that someone else hasn’t enough money, they feel perfectly justified in sticking a gun in my face, taking my money and giving it away as they see fit. They obligate the recipient to themselves to increase their power base, proclaim their superiority, sensitivity and compassion and call me selfish and mean spirited if I complain about their armed robbery. There is no moral difference between a socialist and a person who throws a brick through a plate glass window and runs off down the street with a television set. and they need the same set of circumstances to get away with their crime: Moral confusion and social disorder. They create moral confusion by trying to convince us that keeping what we earn is selfish and that we have some moral obligation to shut up and allow them to steal from us in the name of compassion - a compassion they themselves do not show those from whom they steal. Hiring armed thugs to steal our property and freedoms does not constitute compassion - it constutes an attempt to enslave us to our own government.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

For crying out loud… I AM NOT A SOCIALIST! I am sorry that it makes your life so much easier to just group all of us that stand to the left of center as socialists… obviously you just are not able to handle the complex issues involved and grasp the fact that there is no black and white in the politcal sprectrum… precisely becuase it is a SPECTRUM!

There are shades. You reflect clear imbecility and blockheadedness to group people as you do. I don’t believe that I have posted a thing on this thread that would paint me as a socialist. I would suggest that you don’t really know what a socialist is. I suggest you take a course in Comparative Politics… but you would probably think that the professor and textbook were just socialist garbage… so nevermind.

Sanois… I don’t know if I will be edited for this or not… but people like you honestly make me nauseous. I am not being sarcastic here… when I read your post I really did feel my stomach turn and my throat close. The last thing I want to do is turn this thread into personal atacks… I loved what Hobson had to say on that. But really, these posts are just out of control. Next thing I know some KK Clansman is going to be posting about white supremacy and half the posters will agree.

Since you call me a socialist why don’t I just call you an anarchist. Clearly you hate the government. “Armed thugs stealing our property?” COME ON!!! You are straight out of a movie script with your doomsady anti-government attitude. (I’m thinking “Arlington Road”).

AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

There is a line in the movie the American President that I can’t quote exactly… but it went something like this… “How can you claim to love America but hate everything that is American?”

And how you can justify saying that the average liberal wants to take away all of your rights and and run around expanding the government and nationalizing everthing is as plainly wrong and far away from me as it gets. I am in this nation’s capitol, around this nation’s most prominent democratic government officials a fair amount. It might suprise you that I have yet to hear any of them advocate for anywhere REMOTELY near the kind of government takeover that you seem to think all of us dems and “socialists” are itching for. Oh wait… just the other day I overheard Dick Gephardt discussing how he couldn’t wait to be back in power as the Speaker so that he could really work to expand education in this country and pass a REAL patient’s bill of rights… SOMEONE GO STOP THAT CRAZY SOCIALIST! WHAT IS HE POSSIBLY THINKING??? RIGHT SANOIS?

I am too ruffled here and am going to stop. I can’t believe that I am even letting the people on this board who are SOOOOOOOO close minded get to me. These people do nothing but stereotype and typify and put people into these politcal circles that never share space and are impenetrable. Hmmmph!!!

In real life, where stuff actually gets done, these people don’t exist… they are non-entities in the grand scheme of things because they are so skewed in one direction that they are unable to see through the haze and ever compromise in the name of productive progress. These people make me, for lack of a better word, MADDDDD! And frankly, these people scare me.

And heidi… I think it is safe to say that this thread has really degenerated now! Yick. I don’t know if i should let myself follow it anymore because I am just growing increasingly disapointed in the attitudes presented. The varying stands on issues don’t bother me… I actually like how snowbird feels one way about taxes and I feel another way, and then hobson and magnolia feel yet another way. But the blatent radicalism of some of the ways in which some here defend their beliefs is just horrifying to me.

Oh now I have opened it up. Now I get to be lumped into the “damn crazy liberal” category. Fabulous.

[This message has been edited by rockstar (edited 10-29-2000).]

Jumphigh, I agree puhlease let this election be over. The worst part is no presidential ads in NC, just local yocals insulting on another…“Hey- he’s a jerk, vote for me!” or the annoying incumbant rep that sickeningly campaigns against…I have no clue, but boy, she has values.
I really think all of these people (Bush, Gore, Nader, and the whole lot) are sickening narcissists that can’t hold a real job. Yeah, I’ll vote, but I really wish they’d all catch a 2 year virus that knocked 'em out for 2 years so the smart, normal people could get things done.
I can not believe this post is 11 pages long. Oh well, at least we all care and are upset about this state of affairs.

Well said pwynnnorman!
I have a friend who used to be a liberal, claims she is now a conservative, and when we go over all the issues, the only issue in which she really is a conservative is on TAXATION! WHAT IS SHE AFRAID OF! I’m afraid she is greedy along with some of the others worried about taxes on this list!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inverness:
I have one rule in voting for a President: I want the future leader of the free world to be smarter than me. Let’s face it - Bush is a 40 watt bulb.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn’t have said it better. Not that Gore is exactly the sharpest tool in the shed but I think he’s the lesser of two idiots. Too bad the Republican party decided to push Bush instead of McCain.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MB Stark:
Hey Rockstar!!! I know you from that other board. You know where who I am planning on voting for because of the other political post where ,you (Dreamer) and me (Dolcevita), we doing most of the posting. Go GORE/LIEBERMAN<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! LOL. Nice to have a friend here… what gave my secret identity away… was it my 59 million word post or my job on a certain NY senate campaign? I have debated resurrecting that topic again over there and thought… hmmm… better not!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>misstatments are “honest mistakes.” I also
heard a bit of Jay Leno wondering what poor Dan Quayle must be thinking now –
(paraphrasing): "I’m not smart either. I make dumb mistakes and mispronounce and
misspell words <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So now we are down to measuring intelligence by spelling and mis-statements, gee! on that basis a lot of us are pretty stupid.

Somehow, I find it more stupid that the VP didn’t know that the big guy was renting out the Lincoln bedroom, that he didn’t know what Billy Bob was doing having twice as many people at the state dinners to raise money and he wasn’t supposed to use his phone to call up people for money. The biggest job he’s had since Clinton has been Pres was raising money.

We all depend on spellcheck and editors, does mean we’re all stupid, or just the ones who don’t use it? Would real people be able to speak all that much without an error? Is it just the over-trained parrots that never make a mistake? Is a parrot really smart? And, wasn’t it Gore and Clinton who didn’t know the statues from our founding fathers.

So do we want to measure the candidates by what they don’t know? or by what they might know? or what we hope they know? or what they tell us they know and they might not know?

As to Texas, I think it also depends on the starting point. You and have 100% progress if you start at the real bottom and not be very high. Or you can have no progress and still be listed pretty high depending on your populations in the inner cities who are not english speaking as their first language.

I do agree as someone who does understand the way statistics can be manipulated that many times the comparisons are between apples and cars. That’s also true of the polls. How was the question asked? Did they post every answer or discontinue the questions when they interviewed someone who didn’t agree with the intended purpose of the poll.

Before you believe any figures, please ask who paid for the poll?

I repeat my earlier question, what is a caucasian? I assume that means someone from the Caucasian Mountains.

How do you establish that “caucasian” means “white”? If we are all evolved from Africa and before that “Lucy” then are we not all just mutations of the same genetic base?

Yes, the “Hun” was used as a nasty title for invaders. Semantics do play a large part in our interpreation of a people. Yet, the Scythians whom they invaded were equally warlike, just that they lost and the huns won.

So we can establish that perhaps there is a “genetic” cause behind the behavior in eastern Europe. Yet if we are all simply varying shades of brown then we share so much genetic similarity that this whole prejudice is purely an academic study of siblings objecting to the variations which seem to give one sector more than another sector.

Yes, people who adopt, or people who use embryo transplants would most likely prefer to reproduce themselves. This will soon be possible with cloning.

What about the designer babies? What will happen to the gene pool when all these babies who have been produced by the ideal sperm donor grow up and meet? Suppose they do not know that their feelings for each other are fraternal and make the mistake of believing it is the kind of love that leads to procreation of the species?

Where does the proclivity for violence come from? Is it a recessive gene from Attila the Hun which then makes us not responsible for our behavior? If we choose we can always go back to “Lucy” the chimpanzee who is the mother of humanity.

It is the lack of patience, and the unwillingness to explore the possibility of new or opposing ideas that is a sign of our uncivilized heritage.

Who are the criminals? They are the ones who whether by reason of genetic structure, or bad parenting have chosen to believe they are entitled to the benefits which other people have produced.

There was an interesting interview with a serial killer on TV, he simply said that killing was his job! It was what he did well and what he enjoyed. And, everyone needs a job. That is an example of the criminal mind which does not comprehend that others are equally entitled to individual rights of expression.

I am happy to dialog on any esoteric issue and debate the pros and cons of all views. I have little respect for those who find it necessary to “attack” anyone who appears not to share the same view. A simple fact of life is that there is nothing that is universally acceptable to all people at all times. That is our punishment for eating from the “Tree of Knowledge”.

Anarchy or communism are simply opposite sides of the same issue. Democracy is in the middle neither right nor left. Power tends to try an amplify itself and becomes convinced that it is the authority of what’s best. Just as at one time in this country you could not vote unless you owned property.

We as a civilization should debate how much “government” is good government. How much are we responsible for our neighbors, and how responsible are we for ourselves?

Because we disagree, does not automatically mean that the person with whom we disagree is a “bad” person who deserves to be whipped into submission. That is democracy.

People who cannot or will not follow the rules of our society are “labeled” as the criminals. People who can not or will not follow our social morals are “labeled” as crazy. All that means is there are more of us than them. A paranoid schizphrenic who imagines that he is Napolean can be a much “happier” person, can be well adjusted into his delusion and very satisfied with his life. He is living his dream. Why is he committed to an institution
? Because no one else agrees that he is Napolean.

What is “normal”? What is average? What is right? What is wrong? All paradoxes that can only be solved by individual communities which determine what is normal in their community. We as a civilization cannot even agree on what is “truth”?

So if you think that we are responsible for those less fit to participate in our community you have to ask not how much will the most fit give back to these…but how much willyou be willing to give? We do not have the right to take from one person to give to another person more than they feel is right, that is “criminal”. We do have the right to give what is ours to whomever we wish.

As people and members of humanity we have the duty to take care of those less capable, but we do not have the right to assign that duty to someone else.

Naturally, the state of Texas is arguing that the Constitution gives police the power to arrest for any offense whatsoever, even one carrying a maximum fine of $50, and then to conduct legal body and car searches. Now, given the practice of racial profiling in law enforcement, exactly who do we think is more likely than your average soccer mom to be affected by this lunatic doctrine?

hmmmmm… sounds like those republicans like smaller, less invasive government? NOT!Yes, you have the right to be a WASP, you have the right to read the bible, you have a right to make money, you have the right to pollute, but hey, if the jack booted thug in the police car thinks you look kind of funny, they have the right to throw you in jail. Scarier than Halloween…

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
How much more than 40% of my income do you guys think I should pay to support “entitlements”.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, like welfare mommies who keep on having more kids so they can get even more government support so they don’t have to lift a finger and do any work. You’ve seen them…the ones that weigh about 300 pounds, go into the grocery, buy $300 worth of food (most of it junk food, like twinkies & Pepsi), and pay with WIC or Food stamps, and when they leave, go out and get into their brand new Toyota Avalon or Subaru Outback 4wd wagon!!! . I can’t afford a brand new car, yet these welfare cases can?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
When I meet some poor people who are willing to risk everything and work 8 days a week for the possibility of paying their room and board, then I’ll re-consider!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A-men! I bet if able bodied welfare recipients actually had to lift a finger to collect that welfare cheque, a lot fewer of them would be on welfare. Personally, I think that if you’re going to apply for welfare because “you can’t get a job”, then you should be required to do 40 hours of work; 32 hours of community service per week (scrubbing grafitti, picking up trash, unclogging ditches…you know, appealing fun-type jobs) in order to receive that paycheque. The other 8 should be spent pounding the pavement looking for a better job. What do ya say that suddenly, we don’t have nearly the welfare issue we do now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>[B]I think it depends on your definition of “RICH”. There are lots of people who don’t owe any money to anyone because they pay their bills…does that make them “rich”.

Their are lots of people with a “paper value” and yet they can’t pay their bills and if they did they’d be more than broke…is that “rich”. And, exactly what would happen if everyone who hires all the others decided not to bother, who then would be rich? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/B]

Ain’t this the truth. Some friends of mine probably earn $150k per year between the two of them. They are talking about buying their first house, but they can’t come up with $7,000 for a down payment. They are “cash poor”. They spend their money on new cars, new computers, new (really ugly) modern objects d’ art, golf, and overpriced wine. Go figure.

[This message has been edited by creseida (edited 11-04-2000).]

For the person who asked, yes, Dubbya does have a ranch in the Hill Country and there are horses on that ranch, but that is a far cry from being an actual horseman or even a rancher. Texas is full of these kind of vanity ranches (as I think of them) – places in the country where well-to-do businessmen and lawyers can go on the weekend and pretend to be cowboys. Most of them have them because the come with hunting leases and they don’t have to go far from the house to be able to kill deer and duck (not to mention eating baby quiche for breakfast).

No, Snowbird, there’s still a big, big difference. It’s called the Freedom of Information Act and the higher up you go in government, the more difficult it is to ignore. Local governments–mere office workers even, bureaucrats whose jobs depend on pleasing their local bigwig bosses–are notorious for closing doors in your face, losing documents, not creating documents, etc., etc., etc. Most common response? “I don’t know, and he’s not going to be back (for you) until hell freezes over.” Couple that with the fact that even fewer people vote in local elections and you’ve got a ghastly situation, period. Local government in this country is a JOKE!