[QUOTE=Laurierace;4662797]
Actually you spelled the overwhelming majority of them wrong, some of them so much that I am not even sure what you were attempting to spell but that is beside the point. I have bute and banamine in my drug closet to use as needed. Love estrone, love adequan. Some horses get lasix. That’s about it.[/QUOTE]
No cobra venom, Laurierace?
[QUOTE=DickHertz;4662812]
No cobra venom, Laurierace?[/Q
I knew I was forgetting something! I keep that in the fridge between the eggs and the butter. To keep it fresher its still in the cobra however so you have to be careful opening the door. The cold slows him down some so its not too bad.
OK, let me try phrasing the question another way: what would be the impact on racing if there really was a zero drug/ medication policy within X days of the race, and no therapeutic interventions (except maybe ice packs/ cold hosing) within Y days of a race? What would actually happen to racing? Would it be better or worse? Would it even be possible to level the playing field by eliminating everything but feed and water?
I’m really curious (and amazed at the long list of stuff allowed).
[QUOTE=frugalannie;4662948]
OK, let me try phrasing the question another way: what would be the impact on racing if there really was a zero drug/ medication policy within X days of the race, and no therapeutic interventions (except maybe ice packs/ cold hosing) within Y days of a race? What would actually happen to racing? Would it be better or worse? Would it even be possible to level the playing field by eliminating everything but feed and water?
I’m really curious (and amazed at the long list of stuff allowed).[/QUOTE]
Why even go there? The testing is flawed and doesn’t even pick up cobra venom among a bevy of other things. Under your proposal, the cheaters would prosper even more.
The no medications part is possibly doable. The only part I would balk at is no lasix. The no theraputic applications is unenforceable as they don’t test so you are taking the trainers word for it. I think more people would stoop to shockwave if they couldn’t give any meds. Which in my personal opinion is the root of this thread.
[QUOTE=frugalannie;4662948]
OK, let me try phrasing the question another way: what would be the impact on racing if there really was a zero drug/ medication policy within X days of the race, and no therapeutic interventions (except maybe ice packs/ cold hosing) within Y days of a race? What would actually happen to racing? Would it be better or worse? Would it even be possible to level the playing field by eliminating everything but feed and water?
I’m really curious (and amazed at the long list of stuff allowed).[/QUOTE]
You would basically have racing as it is in the rest of the world.
The impact would be that you would not be able to run bleeders and sore horses would have to get time off instead of race. Both of these would cost connections $$$$$, which is why you will never seen the introduction of no race day meds. People will be along any minute to tell you it’s a horse welfare issue, but the real reason is and always has been $$$$ — you spent tens of thousands on a yearling and then find out he bleeds to bad to race competitively? well lets allow Lasix, then he can run and you’re not out of pocket. And lets give every horse in the race Lasix whether they need it or not, because we want to make sure the other guy isn’t getting even a tiny advantage. The horse is too sore to race? we could give him time off… or we could allow bute to cure his achiness and allow him to run. Btw, both are performance enhancers. If the heavy bleeder didn’t have Lasix he wouldn’t be as competitive. If the achy horse didn’t have bute to make his achiness go away, he would be less likely to give his all. If the horse didn’t perform better, people wouldn’t use them, ergo it enhances performance. Btw, someone will also be along to tell us that more horses would end up going to slaughter if there were no race day meds and therefore they should continue to be allowed. But the real reason for race day meds is $$$$.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;4662842]
[QUOTE=DickHertz;4662812]No cobra venom, Laurierace?[/Q
I knew I was forgetting something! I keep that in the fridge between the eggs and the butter. To keep it fresher its still in the cobra however so you have to be careful opening the door. The cold slows him down some so its not too bad.[/QUOTE]
Oh my! I think your on to the latest fad diet! :eek:
[QUOTE=DickHertz;4662302]
Subpoenas Received for Grand Jury Hearing on February 17
On Monday February 1, 2010, various persons associated with Penn National received subpoenas to appear before a Grand Jury on February 17, 2009. I can not say anything further or reveal names, but there is a Grand Jury Hearing on February 17, 2010 in Central Pennsylvania. Suffice it to say that it is people in all sorts of profefssions in and around the racetrack.[/QUOTE]
This ought to be really interesting! Keep us posted, Dick!
[QUOTE=Laurierace;4662797]
Actually you spelled the overwhelming majority of them wrong, some of them so much that I am not even sure what you were attempting to spell but that is beside the point. I have bute and banamine in my drug closet to use as needed. Love estrone, love adequan. Some horses get lasix. That’s about it.[/QUOTE]
Sorry my spelling is so bad, partly because i was typeing fast as i was on my way out the door.
i just posted this short list to give those who have no idea just how much crap is pumped into these horses.
i for one am all for drug free racing, will it ever happen? NO.
but it would be nice.
Drug free racing - never!
But why couldn’t it happen. I agree that it will be a hard sell, because- as already outlined by some of the posts it would be a massive shift in the entire industry’s culture.
Are there horses out there at tracks right now that couldn’t race without drugs? - absolutely yes - but is that right that they should still be racing if they need so much assistance - kind of like beating your grandma into a job at Walmart.
So, why not phase it in year by year, and even give everyone a heads up of a few years so they stop breeding fashionable but flimsey weak horses, and stop hammering on them so hard that they break.
Drugs are a poor, but easy and cheap substitute for good horsemanship.
I can’t think of anything else but a very public humiliation/shaming that will spur such a change. They won’t do it until they’re forced to.
As for all the tapping/joint injections etc… that’s an even tougher one to crack. It could be done, but again a huge change in business practices by the NTRA and racing commissions.
Just getting all the ‘testable’ drugs out would be a great start, and if there was some teeth in the rules/laws, it would either force those that currently use drugs to change, or move to the street corner job for which they are vastly more qualified. It will certainly get rid of some of the pharmacists, and after that there will be some momentum to clean things up further.
[QUOTE=NoBSshoer;4662442]
It seems like you’re making some assumptions here that come off as sort of rude. I didn’t say anything about depending on drugs or not resting horses when needed, I merely pointed out that some drugs are helpful to the horse. I’ll gladly race drug-free. The pre-race dosages allowed (except Lasix) aren’t enough to make a huge difference. Again, it’s the people who break the rules and have no regard for horse or rider who are the problem.
some further clarification…
clembuterall (ventrapulmin)- a butter-like compound from the clemintine fruit that should be applied to the chest area to help breathing - compare with dorsopulmin that helps saddle sores
nocwasone - American Indian headache remedy
sulucortif - African tribal analgesic usually administered by spear
vetlog - usually left blank on most backsides
legand - HA injectible for legs (and other parts too!)
[QUOTE=Melelio;4662599]
I totally agree with this. Any of us with performance horses, if our horses all of a sudden required bute or some NSAID for inflammation, wouldn’t go take said horse right out to a high stress competition as soon as we started the therapy. We’d let the rest and heal whatever caused the inflammation. Race horses don’t seem to have that luxury, because they have to ‘earn a living’ for the trainers/owners. They never asked to do that…we ask THEM, so therefore we should treat their bodies with respect, as well as we do ours.
I know dang well that if I hurt my shoulder and get some painkillers, I’m going to work slower and more carefully shoveling and working around the barn. Not faster and more…racehorses can’t do that.[/QUOTE]
Some of us do slow down or stop training when a problem arises. I was taught early on, that you can give them a little time off now or will have to give them more time off later. I prefer to rest and rehab them before the problem turns into a bigger one. I lost several owners because I refused to race horses that I felt were compromised. Luckily, I don’t have to train a public stable anymore.
Back to Penn National doings, it looks like it’s going to get more interesting.
This has been, for the most part, a useful and illuminating thread. I’m heartened that the controversy surrounding Mike Gill has generated so much discussion about the general status of TB racing.
I’m confident that most of us understand that this discussion isn’t ONLY about Mr. Gill, but involves shameful and, sadly, prevalent practices at racetracks all over the country. As long as there are people who have no compunction about pulling out their pharmaceutical bag of tricks in order to win races, the game will be sullied.
It is unrealistic to hope for racing that precludes ALL pharmaceuticals. Lasix helps the true bleeders. Once all horses in a field are running on Lasix, it’s hardly going to change the outcome of a race. However, the true bleeders are SOL without it and adjunct therapy. Whether or not they should continue to race is another level of controversy. Many trainers I’ve been associated with have elected to retire horses that can’t be “held” by approved anti-bleeding therapy. Usually these horses reach a point when pulmonary hemorrhage is so severe that it is pointless and costly to continue to run them.
Penn scratched several more in the post parade tonight. Seems like they’re starting to be more proactive which is admirable. While I still think pre-race exams should be implemented on the backside, I’m glad their being a little more picky with the horses on the track.
[QUOTE=D Murray;4662366]
here is a short list of drugs that most trainers use on a regular basis leading up to a race and on raceday.
bute
banimine
lasix
dmso jugs
robaxin
clembuterall (ventrapulmin)
azium
nocwasone
robinal
parvolex
clotall
sulucortif
vetlog
legand
adaquan
calcium jugs
those are just a few of what gets used all the time by most trainers . they don’t include all the joint injecting that takes place as well[/QUOTE]
Not to be mean, Dave, but as a blacksmith, haven’t you used things such as Robaxin on yourself when you’ve had to shoe a lot of tough ones? My point is, certain drugs DO have a therapeutic use - look at what we as humans use to make ourselves more comfortable. If a trainer relies on them to keep a horse running then they need to reconsider, but there is a time and place where the judicious use of some therapies is warranted.
Dee
Firstly, thanks to all who took the time to respond to my genuine question. And Dick, thank you for letting me understand this issue better. Seems zero drugs could be done, would be difficult and a game-changer, but would align US racing with the rest of the world (Thanks, Drvmb1ggl3 for the international view.)
Foundationmare, great post (I always admire your posts, BTW). A dear vet friend has told me that Lasix doesn’t cure the bleed: just masks it. The only thing that may cure a bleeder is hyperbaric oxygen applied early. That would seem to agree with your trainer friends.
OK. Diversion over. Great to see signs that things might be changing at one track in the US.
[QUOTE=D Murray;4661450]
No doubt in my mind he’ll come back ,but i think it will take awhile till Gill get’s rid of all the horses.
i’am sure Tony may find an owner to buy some and bring them here.
never a dull moment[/QUOTE]
I like to think that the stewards / security would be doing a LOT of “random” visits to his barn!
Dee
[QUOTE=DeeThbd;4663567]
Not to be mean, Dave, but as a blacksmith, haven’t you used things such as Robaxin on yourself when you’ve had to shoe a lot of tough ones? My point is, certain drugs DO have a therapeutic use - look at what we as humans use to make ourselves more comfortable. If a trainer relies on them to keep a horse running then they need to reconsider, but there is a time and place where the judicious use of some therapies is warranted.
Dee[/QUOTE]
actually i’am allergic to robaxin, my drug of choice for myself is advil , i’am not saying these drugs aren’t useful (if used properly) i just put them up so the people who aren’t familar with what goes into these horses get some kind of idea that it dosn’t stop with bute and lasix.
[QUOTE=DeeThbd;4663582]
I like to think that the stewards / security would be doing a LOT of “random” visits to his barn!
Dee[/QUOTE]
Ya think a lot of them might get TCO"D and sent to the test barn whether or not they hit the board
i heard this morning that he has already applied for stalls, and they will gladly give them to him.
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