[QUOTE=SwtVixen;4945252]
(quote)an HBPA president who has beat all false allegations (quote)… that should read allegations without the false in front of it to be gramatically correct.
…and, just as capable were the Clintons at beating all their alleged infractions – everyone knew they were guilty but they had the political pull to sweep their dirty deeds under the carpet.[/QUOTE]
Even OJ Simpson got away with MURDER. So it isn’t that hard to fathom seeing the likes of Gill and his band of merry men, Beattie and any other lowlife escape justice in the racing industry.
Vixen and other blind cult followers, your statements are nothing but pure nonsense. Wild speculation and second hand story telling do not make for convincing arguments in my book. Your merry band of heathens would be just the type of people to convict the accused without a fair trial. You would rather lynch first and ask questions later.
At risk of being redundant, please give specific examples of horses in the last year that Steph has sent to slaughter. This entire mob movement continues to repeat the same allegations over and over but they cannot name one horse that was a violation of the slaughter policy in the last year. All of you know it all finger pointers on one web site and not one of you geniuses has one single shred of evidence. I mean, do we expect PNGI to take action just because lost vixen says its going on? You are being irrational and ridiculous and deep down you know it. If you want to morally police the area make sure we do it in civilized, factual 2010 not like we did in Salem. You don’t have a leg to stand on vixen. You too, humiliate yourself, with each fantasy world posting
And for the record, I never professed that I knew exactly where all the horses were. I said that I was confident that the accused party could answer questions about these retired horses and put some of these wild rumors to rest for good. I firmly believe that most of you will be surprised and apologetic by the time this is done.
[QUOTE=John Sunwack;4941043]
Let’s cut through the opinions, abusive language, and speculation. I do apologize for my questionable language and vow to refrain from any profanity in the future on this thread. I have become frustrated with the lack of verifiable evidence that the majority of you have not been able to supply to support your main points [/QUOTE] Hmmmm does the folks out at the training farm checking tattoos on every horse there count? Keep the heat up folks, this is working.
At least give Steph a reasonable chance to defend herself. Many of you say that her horses crash from some sort of drug when leaving her hands. Lets hear some specific names of horses with corroborating veterinary evidence. Instead of making harmful, general statements, provide specific data to prove your points.
Matter of fact that’s true. But same can be said for the likes of Scott Lake and a few other notable stalwarts.:rolleyes:
You all want to see Penn National enforce its slaughter policy but you keep citing examples of horses that were pulled from kill pens in 2008. This is before the slaughter policy was in effect, and for purpose of documented racetrack action, is deemed to be irrelevant by Penn National. So lets not waste time asking Penn execs to enforce something that will not hold up during this time period.
Wrong again. As someone else said it was in effect that year. Has been since '06? I believe.
I challenge any of you, once again,to provide any Steph Beattie slaughter violation that actually holds up during the period through which the policy was posted. If you do, I will personally present it to Penn management and demand that she be immediately removed from the grounds. But we all know that this is never going to happen because she would never do this to one of her horses. Steph is emotionally distraught and has cried many a tear over this fabricated mess. If you people cannot provide serious proof of wrongdoing, then I suggest that each and every one of you owes her a sincere, heartfelt apology
Already done. Now want to talk about the missing horses?
Seems Steph doesn’t like him either…wait…I’ll get back to that
Wonder if she acknowledged the role of Mr Wells? Or his ace vet? Never mind. Plowed ground already.
And cut the personal attacks on the successful people at this track. Krulock simply runs an effective business. He is able to get small fields to go when others can’t and was able to get a full barn for Gill when most people can’t acquire one stall. But, this is not illegal. Personal relationship building is how we get ahead and build business. Any mention of him owning horses with Paul Jenkins or setting up stall payments is reckless and untrue. Come on, Jenkins was already accussed of this in the past. Do you really think that he would risk it all to make a few extra dollars? Bottom line is if you don’t have solid proof or anything productive to say,keep your mouth shut.
Accusations you allude to were brought up by one Michael Gill himself. What if he doesn’t keep his mouth shut? What you gonna do? Matter of fact, how about me? What if I don’t keep my mouth shut? What you gonna do? Dick Hertz? Big Bopper? Judgement Day? Anybody else? Tell us, What’s going to happen from failure to keep mouths shut?
[QUOTE=John Sunwack;4944307]And by the way, how have you all been making out with your solid proof challenge that I gave you regarding Steph? NADA!!! Not a single one of you could provide one single horse from the last year that was put in harms way.
OK, I’ll stop gloating now. Let’s make this more about productive change. Instead of slandering her name all over the internet, how about asking some questions so that she has a fair chance to prove that she is a good person. All of you seem to put a ton of effort into bashing her and digging up old personal skeletons. If you really care about answers how about using some of that horse caring energy to compile a list of horses from her barn that have not run in a few months or that you assume are retired for their careers. List them by owner and the last date of their race and go back as far as you would like to in time (within reason). I’m quite confident that Steph will be able to answer for where the horses have gone and put all of your nonsense and fears to rest for good. And then the apologies can begin. All of you are obligated.[/QUOTE] Asked for and delivered. Where are the horses folks have listed? The nice 4H lady?
[QUOTE=John Sunwack;4944604]Dick, I feel like you continue to spew out nonsense but never really listen to the voice of reason. The HBPA could put together a slaughter policy as elaborate as the US Constitution but it could all be for not. They have little policy making ability and virtually no enforcement powers when it comes to a touchy Penn policy like this. Any piece of writing that they present to Penn could be chalked up to only a recommendation. And we all know how seriously they consider those from horsemen[/QUOTE] Sounds like someone who knows intimately the workings of that esteemed body, hmmmmmmmmm
But seriously Dick, what are you going to do now that you have nothing to talk about? No arrests, a failed investigation, an HBPA president who has beat all false allegations and is thriving in her role (we will call it PENN Renaissance ) , and a commission that is working on more effective drug rules. You’re going to have to start painting toy soldiers or play dress up medieval knights and princesses with the rest of the geek squad. Either that or actually grow up and admit your petty, childish mistakes
(quote: Perhaps the next course of action would be an open inquiry by both groups PNGI and HBPA to address these allegations (quote)
As obviously the words and vocabuluary used are beyond your comprehension Johnnie... that WAS suggesting a fair trial (in your words) ... but a fair inquiry be offered to explain these allegations. There is nothing wrong with DH asking about his horse, or doublete asking about hers...good thing DASL Doc and Robt Cole dont give a damn for their horses otherwise they might be asking about their horses.
While you are just spewing nonsense... the rest of us will be hard at work finding a manner to present this to a fair and impartial panel of folks with the only intention of protecting the horses at PN from this horrific and cruel manner of disposal of non-racing horses. Slaughter is UNacceptable.
Judybigredpony has outlined some very valid and workable ideas that once implemented will resolve most of this controvery.
I would like to see many of these folk here come together as a group, with factual and concrete ideas for solutions …
Oh.... on that what happens if *we* dont keep our mouths shut?... everyone already knows that answer...
The inner group makes sure life becomes either impossible or horrendously difficult -- THATS Business as Usual at PN
Profidia, you literally have me laughing so hard that my side hurts. [edit]
It is purely laughable how you were quoting my past statements with really nothing intelligent or insightful to say. Seems like you wasted a lot of time just reiterating the finer points of my postings. Thanks for the added publicity. Don’t forget to hit me back up when you get some solid facts. I’ll be waiting
Somebody send this John Sunwach packing, please!!! [edit] the other questions need to be answered. Why can she not remember where groups of her horses have gone after racing? Lets hope some of the owners have a little more of a clue than she has
I hope the horses that the earlier poster had mentioned, are in safe keeping, but I seriously doubt it. I am anxiously awaiting answers from Stephanie and her connections. It might be hard to wiggle out of this one
And frankly, it is ridiculous to assume that a trainer has to have a vested interest that each and every horse passing through his/her hands lands in the perfect loving home for the next 30 years. Sometimes good enough will have to do, and in case you missed it, the COTH forum is full of stories were the perfect home turned into a perfect nightmare, of breeders turned hoarders, on paper they looked really good, they talked the talk, but down the road the poop hit the fan, big time.
I think the question posted a little above was valid: why lay blame only at the trainer’s feet? The breeding farms don’t even care past the auction block, have cash will carry…
At some point a trainer has to look at the bottom line, and often that just means that the horse that does not cut it has to make room for the new hope.
When this thread started out, it was more about curbing the real weirdness that was Gill’s little shop of horrors, but by now the the weirdness of ‘no horse left behind’ has taken over.
Point is, unless you can provide a bill of sale from trainer to kill buyer - better yet meat packer, you are sadly up the creek without a paddle!
There are some things in this country, even if the outcome is despicable that are covered by the constitution and a myriad of laws under the umbrella protection there of. Attacking a person because of his/her legal actions just because you don’t like them is certainly covered there somewhere…and it probably makes it more likely that the castaways are less likely to appear in public. After all, when a horse is dead you have the ultimate guarantee it won’t be starved, beaten etc…
We will never get any answers from either Stephanie or her associates. that’s because ALL of these horses have not been retired to a good home. all the horses listed earlier are DEAD, sent to slaughter, period. face it everyone, Stephanie or her owners don’t give a damn about any horse once they can no longer make a dollar from them. send them to slaughter and bring in another bunch to shockwave, block, and load up with drugs. within a few months they go to pieces and we send them out. a rather sickening process but sadly true. there is one more thing that makes me want to vomit. Mr. brown and everyone praising him says that he is such a wonderful person and cares so much about the game and the horses. He can say that Stephanie would never be guilty of any of these accusations but I say he is fully aware of what goes on in his barn. He suffers from the same thing that many of his associates and trainer suffer from. And that is GREED!! all at the horses expense I might add. but it is so important to say that i have horses with the leading trainer at Penn National, Stepahanie Beattie. WOW!! who truly gives a sh**! Penn National is viewed nationally as complete joke of a track where corruption runs rampant. so all of you phonies, don’t pat yourself on the back too much because basically, Nobody really cares.
That a good eval Big Bopper — sadly, SB and her connections just_dont_ realize_ that :
folks asking the questions DONT care two hoots of whom is being asked! .....what's sought are the answers.
The concern here.......... are the horses.
How can the cruel manner of ending a horses life be lost in the semantics of finger-pointing ...while the slaughtering continues -- in the meantime SB and her connections are trying to figure more devious ways to continue without detection and hide behind the smokescreen of *prove it*.
What a slap in the face to the gallant horses that have lined those folks pockets so richly.
[QUOTE][/QUOTE]I think the question posted a little above was valid: why lay blame only at the trainer’s feet? The breeding farms don’t even care past the auction block, have cash will carry… Alagirl
Yes we did start this out on a road to Elkcreek and I gave a detailed view inside of its weirdness. Along with the one way trips for his “finished” horses. That he solely owned.
There is a chain of custody here.
The BREEDER pays the stud fee and raises the foal, at some point it is hypothetically SOLD to a new OWNER who puts it in training under the CUSTODY of a TRAINER who does not OWN the horse. Yes I am well aware of partnerships and “Deal”. But lets keep it simple.
When said TRAINER calls his paying OWNER to tell him horse threw his final clinker race, came back limping, no longer responds to what ever means it took to keep up those winning 1-2-3 form.
One of 3 things transpires OWNER tells TRAINER to find the horse a new job, lay it up, or get it gone ASAP no questions asked.
So in this camp which option are we looking at. Because in this information Hiway you can’t tell us Ms “B” owners aren’t more than aware where THEIR horses go. And THEY don’t care.
The sad truth is most OTTB will go thru a detox withdrawl once they leave the track, for the most part its not pretty some worse than others. Most survive, but certain combinations of product when with held does result in death.
no amount of liver clean and food is going to stave it off.
And if a joint has been visited one to many times and steroids used in there well bone on bone makes for a very sad in pain horse.
Now I’m not saying Ms “B” horses are in this group.
But so far not a single sole person has popped up on here saying they buy her OTTB and they are turining into wondeful sound sane healthy sports horses.
No onen has said they have a productive broodmare or heck even a happy pasture sound ornament.
For a trainer who churns thru the amount of horses per year she does, the sale of 1-2 OTTB @ say $1,000. to $1500. per horse is almost as much as she hypothetically gets in a year from the KB’s. Hypothetically speaking.
Altruistically her owners could be getting tax deductions for surrendering horses to 501 charities. Or giving up the horse and making a cash donation for its keep/welfare.
And for $600. (I hear) they could put the horse out of its misery which is a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to training fees/vet bills/farrier/shipping expenses and again a business expense and hence deductable. The paltry sum from KB is more of a convenience just a phone call and problem …goes away…end of story.
And this continued heresay he said she said finger pointing tongue wagging would all go away if Ms “B” would just 1. admit she did the deed or 2. prove she has attempted to place those horses who aren’t broken beyond repair in a new life.
By placing herself in a political position of power authority and esteem. She has the owence to at least attempt while in the job to toe the line and set an example.
What she did before or after is another issue. But she set herself up for a huge pratt fall while attempting to hold onto her crown.
she can step down you know remove the heat or reform.
Johnnie I know you will miss carrying her Septor and train…::lol:
and apologies for spelling errors had a accident involving typing finger:sadsmile:
[QUOTE=OMG;4946113]
Owners are 100% responsible for the fate of their horses on track and off track. Period.[/QUOTE]
You know, if racing were to start holding owners nearly as responsible as they do these scumbag trainers for bad tests, missing horses, etc, these owners might start considering hiring more ethical like horsemen. And that would put a great deal of so-called top trainers out of business or at the very least, down where they truly belong.
The flip side of the coin is, it would put real horse caring knowledgeable horsemen back in business and these owners would then see their vet bills drop and their horses remaining healthy/sounder longer. I guarantee it. A large percentage of these clowns with a trainers license today truly haven’t a clue. So they have to rely on the needle or other vet work for any kind of success.
We are in a day and age in racing which is similiar to the music industry or hollywood, etc. Both are producing garbage. The talent level and product just isn’t the same anymore. It is more about sex sells.
Well in racing, it is no longer about what one knows, but what one is willing to do. And in order to have the mindset of doing “whatever it takes to win”, one can not also have the best interest of the horse at heart.
I do not claim to be any kind of high authority in the world of horse retirement. What I do know is that Steph Beattie has a decent number of horses that she cannot account for after their last race. No matter what anyone says, her alarming rate of mysteriously disappearing horses is not OK. And the fact that she hides behind her organization and partnership protection, well that is plain wrong as well
Where I think the situation starts to get a little tricky is when the voices get so loud and the concerned list of horses gets so large that the silence must be broken and an explanation must be given. When the truth trickles out, who will take the blame for the absolute careless decision making here?
It is already being chattered that she will be attempting to throw others under the bus. David Wells has been mentioned as an easy scapegoat with strong rumors of owners like Brown taking the fall in order to help save her reputation and career. People do desperate things in times of trouble and chances are she’ll eventually be backed into a corner
To make it clear, I’m not saying that her owners are responsible for this mess or even had knowledge of the dirty events that have brought us to this point. I, for the most part, have been fortunate enough to have clients who wanted to take an active part in retiring their horses. In the rare occasion where this was not the case, I took it upon myself to exercise due diligence in their placement. I understand that this is not easy and fully realize the financial burden that accompanies it until the job is done but the aggravation lets me sleep better at night. I just hope that she doesn’t drag other innocent folks through the mud because her ethics were not in the right place.
[QUOTE=Dahoss;4946152]
You know, if racing were to start holding owners nearly as responsible as they do these scumbag trainers for bad tests, missing horses, etc, these owners might start considering hiring more ethical like horsemen. And that would put a great deal of so-called top trainers out of business or at the very least, down where they truly belong. [/QUOTE]
If owners were held truly responsible, places like PENN and PHA would have a tougher time filling races. Personal accountability is not part of the equation for some of the owners already mentioned throughout this thread. They’d rather do something else than play the game in a way that puts the horse first.
Below is a copy of the letter from Penn National Gaming, Inc. regarding their new anti-slaughter policy.
March 30, 2010
Board of Directors
PA HBPA
PO Box 88
Grantville, PA 17028
Re: Penn National Gaming Anti-Slaughter Policy
Board Members of the HBPA:
As you know, the horse racing industry continues to be plagued by the existence of horsemen who sell their horses to brokers for resale and slaughter. Penn National Gaming is opposed to this practice and the inhumane treatment of the animals by those engaged in it. To clarify our position, we are issuing the following policy statement, to be effective immediately:
“Any horsemen stabled at a Penn National Gaming, Inc. owned or operated horse racing facility who knowingly, or without conducting proper due diligence, sells a horse for slaughter, directly or indirectly, will have his or her stalls revoked and may, in addition, be barred from all of our racing properties. Penn National Gaming, Inc. requires that horsemen participating at the Company’s racetracks conduct proper due diligence on those buying horses and encourages horsemen participating at Penn National facilities and industry-wide to support rescue and adoption efforts and to seek humane means of dealing with horses unable to continue racing.”
You will note the requirement for “due diligence” on the part of horsemen. Turning a blind eye is not acceptable.
HCPNRC requests that the PA HBPA and its members stand in opposition to inhumane treatment and slaughter of horses. We ask that you take an active role in ensuring this practice does not happen here. Should any horsemen become aware of any such activity, please notify HCPNRC Security immediately, so that appropriate action can be taken.
We look forward to your commitment in working to prevent any mistreatment of these equine athletes.
Dick H. knows me well and as an owner who has retired every one of my horses and personally cared for them myself for all but 2 and 1 of them I gave to people, and he is absolutely thriving I go and see him every 10 days or so the other 1 sadly is still racing at the bottom cause my trainer doesn’t know when to quit. I hated the Gill crap from the getgo and I know you can pay the damm training bills and even make a fair profit if you space your horses race and give them the time off they need. I love my horses and every damm body elses horses I know these hardcore run um into the ground bastages only care about profit . I put the horse first, afterall they do the work and risk their life in every race. What brave souls they are. I have put back in the majority of the money they have earned. I’m quit sure if they all live to even 20 years of age ,I’ll be in the red , but so be it then. I’m with them every day of their lives and my life and I can tell you it is a rewarding of an experience as one can have. To all those such as Mr Gill and his trainers and Steph and every other person employing their pathetic methods, [edit] This is just not right and they damm well know it!!!
You know at the rated USEF horse shows, the trainer signs the entry form as well as the owner and the nominated rider whether professional or amature…when a horse test positive ALL are held accountable…
[QUOTE=SwtVixen;4946327]
Penn National Gaming Anti-Slaughter Policy
Below is a copy of the letter from Penn National Gaming, Inc. regarding their new anti-slaughter policy.
March 30, 2010
Board of Directors
PA HBPA
PO Box 88
Grantville, PA 17028
Re: Penn National Gaming Anti-Slaughter Policy
Board Members of the HBPA:
As you know, the horse racing industry continues to be plagued by the existence of horsemen who sell their horses to brokers for resale and slaughter. Penn National Gaming is opposed to this practice and the inhumane treatment of the animals by those engaged in it. To clarify our position, we are issuing the following policy statement, to be effective immediately:
“Any horsemen stabled at a Penn National Gaming, Inc. owned or operated horse racing facility who knowingly, or without conducting proper due diligence, sells a horse for slaughter, directly or indirectly, will have his or her stalls revoked and may, in addition, be barred from all of our racing properties. Penn National Gaming, Inc. requires that horsemen participating at the Company’s racetracks conduct proper due diligence on those buying horses and encourages horsemen participating at Penn National facilities and industry-wide to support rescue and adoption efforts and to seek humane means of dealing with horses unable to continue racing.”
You will note the requirement for “due diligence” on the part of horsemen. Turning a blind eye is not acceptable.
HCPNRC requests that the PA HBPA and its members stand in opposition to inhumane treatment and slaughter of horses. We ask that you take an active role in ensuring this practice does not happen here. Should any horsemen become aware of any such activity, please notify HCPNRC Security immediately, so that appropriate action can be taken.
We look forward to your commitment in working to prevent any mistreatment of these equine athletes.
Yours truly,
Frank Quigley
Vice President & General Manager[/QUOTE]
Mr. Quigley is a glorified blackjack dealer who knows how to follow the company line. Quigley has IGNORED overtures from people in the retirement community who have information they’d like him to see. If Mr. Quigley would like to prevent this crap from going on it’s fairly easy to accomplish, but it would take members of PNGI to pony up some dough as well as having at least the intellect of an 8th grader - neither can or will take place because there is neither a willingness to donate a real sum of money toward the cause nor the cognitive ability from Quigley - Marella - McErlean to come up with a plan in any our lifetimes. After all, they’re all stressed right now getting ready for table games which only knocks the horses a few more pegs down the order of importance. Trust me, PNGI is glad these horses are being butchered every Tuesday at Viande Richelieu. They would love to bust a guy with 3 horses to send a message but when a couple of the long-time brass who also happen to be HBPA members you have Rob Marella doing this http://nihongo.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/3859760/2/istockphoto_3859760-hiding-under-desk.jpg
Just thought I would post my horse’s name.
Regardlessly raced last for Stephanie Beattie on 6/14/2009. (i think that was the date). I believe it was a Sunday. We contacted Steph and David within a day or two to inform them I wanted to come pick up the horse. Later I was told that the horse was gone by Tuesday to the “4-H lady”. However, when I asked for how i could get ahold of the woman because I truly beleived that horse deserved a better future, and wanted to be sure he got it, I could not get any information.
So John Sunwack- here are your facts. Regardlessly was the horses name… He finished 2nd for Steph in his last start. She heard from me immediately after that and DID make sure I got the other horse back. So I do beleive she knows she did wrong. BUT, I also believe she knows the horse is lost and doesn’t want to admit it. Because she cannot and will not give me any concrete facts. We are talking a year ago, so it is too late. I will say the other horse that I had trained for Mr. Cole when she was done with him, I got a text immediately and he was in my barn before Mr. cole even knew she was done with him. More proof that she does things without the knowledge of the owners. LIterally The Juice is Loose was back in my shedrow before Robert Cole was even informed of it (I informed him first that the horse was on the way back to me- news to him).
