Buy American

[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;5866098]
There is a problem with the pricing of horses in NA in general I think.

People don’t approach this as a business and the expression “cut your losses” isn’t used often enough.

I.e.: A horse that was bred to the nines, yet is a dud. Buyers only care about their true market value, what you paid or the costs you incurred in producing said horse is not a factor unfortunately. :frowning: It’s about what is it worth TODAY compared to horses in the same category.[/QUOTE]

This is really true. Earlier in the thread someone said that having to take professional pictures was a reason to raise the horse’s price.

Um, huh? No. Is a horse worth more because you paid someone to take its picture? Of course not.

The only justification for price is quality. Costs are irrelevant to the buyer and do not reflect how much the animal is worth.

Luckily there are fairly-priced, high-quality babies out there, but if the baby is on the market and isn’t selling you might start to think about whether it is being seen/advertised well – and if it is, whether it is really priced appropriately.

I have lost track of the number of times I’ve heard “horse is going into training which costs $x amount, at which time price will go up by $x amount too.”

So, what if the trainer discovers the horse is a vicious monster who can’t jump over it’s own hooves? Will the price still go up?

I have lost track of the number of times I’ve heard “horse is going into training which costs $x amount, at which time price will go up by $x amount too.”

So, what if the trainer discovers the horse is a vicious monster who can’t jump over it’s own hooves? Will the price still go up?

At my farm, the chance is nill. If you think I’m going to pay 1200 - 1500 per month to a trainer to start a mediocre youngster you need to be schooled yourself. Any young horse I’ve bred that is not going to measure up is not on my feed bill anymore much into their 2yo year. And yes - the price is going up very fast once they are started.

Not to say this has not come back to bite me. I firesaled a yearling I was very “meh” about …very tall and a tangle of legs - movement at the time was “okay”. He’s coming 6 now and still in the same state. I kick myself every time I see him.

Yes, AHF because you have common sense and know that a horse with zero talent can’t keep costing. That’s running a business.

And Fordtraktor, I was just coming here to post about that comment of the pro pics=more money? Really in what world?

I too notice the same prices on many varieties of horses. Just because it cost x amount to produce doesn’t mean it’s worth the price you put on him/her. That’s why horses listed in that price range with accolades sell and the others are hanging around. Of course nobody wants to lose money. But if that is happening over and over, no use blaming Europe and no help. You really have to take a serious look at what you have and make changes. You can breed any way you like but you have to be realistic. I use a TB mare. She hasn’t been bred in 2 years because I’m trying to get the daughter out. I have to if I intend to sell horses out of Stella in the future. Abba seems to be talented but we don’t know for sure. A producer bought my colt foal out of the mare last year. That is huge. That’s one I’m not spending money on to promote. And it is way cheaper to just put any foal on the ground than training and showing but it must be done. Otherwise I’m just breeding to breed wondering why I have a bunch of pretty horses in the field nobody wants to buy for what I think I should get.

Terri

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5866613]
Yes, AHF because you have common sense and know that a horse with zero talent can’t keep costing. That’s running a business.

And Fordtraktor, I was just coming here to post about that comment of the pro pics=more money? Really in what world?

I too notice the same prices on many varieties of horses. Just because it cost x amount to produce doesn’t mean it’s worth the price you put on him/her. That’s why horses listed in that price range with accolades sell and the others are hanging around. Of course nobody wants to lose money. But if that is happening over and over, no use blaming Europe and no help. You really have to take a serious look at what you have and make changes. You can breed any way you like but you have to be realistic. I use a TB mare. She hasn’t been bred in 2 years because I’m trying to get the daughter out. I have to if I intend to sell horses out of Stella in the future. Abba seems to be talented but we don’t know for sure. A producer bought my colt foal out of the mare last year. That is huge. That’s one I’m not spending money on to promote. And it is way cheaper to just put any foal on the ground than training and showing but it must be done. Otherwise I’m just breeding to breed wondering why I have a bunch of pretty horses in the field nobody wants to buy for what I think I should get.

Terri[/QUOTE]

Oh you certainly can charge a lot more when you have professional photos and videos. If you couldn’t… no one would do them. They make the horse look better, you can charge more. And people do buy it. Weird, but that’s marketing for ya.

Yeah, people who haven’t got a clue what they are buying. So exactly how much extra is a horse worth with these awesome videos when he can’t jump a pole and has pretty average at best gaits? And if these professional photos get a little Photoshop done I guess you’re hoping no one notices when they actually come and see the horse or that they don’t come at all. Just be dazzled enough to wire the money straight to your account. And what happens when the 1000 bucks you just spent on Dobbin goes pear shaped when a PPE exam reveals all is not well underneath the glossy facade.

No bad pictures and video I agree but dressing up mutton as lamb and then thinking your entitled to more money is flawed thinking.

Terri

I sometimes feel that we US breeders are held to a different standard, and it is a standard that is not possible financially. I have been fortunate to tour many top German breeding farms on several trips. There I have seen the horses being raised in an efficient manner. They are livestock that are run in large groups. In the winter they are often in large communal stalls that are deep-litter bedded or maybe in a muddy “dry” lot. It certainly takes less manpower ($$) to simply add bedding and take a bobcat every so often to scrape the whole thing out. The well-bred youngsters and famous mares I have seen have been shaggy with long manes. On some pretty famous farms I have seen wire and even barbed wire fences in those back fields.

When they are finally old enough to be started, they are taken to some great looking barn, of which there are many that appear to be built in the days when those things weren’t cost prohibitive, handled and started. If you go as a buyer to see a riding horse, you only see those horses in those great barns which is great packaging. You don’t see that the horse was minimally handled until three (which does not matter since the end result is fine) and you don’t realize it was stabled a lot in a herd-like situation in close quarters (which may or may not matter.) You are pre-qualified because you are most likely with an agent who has done that (and the fact that you have invested in the flight and room also helps.) Otherwise the agent wouldn’t waste the gas, time, and their reputation driving you everywhere. When you show up the seller will have the riding horse braided and bandaged and ready to show to you. It works great! The seller has not had to video each horse they have for sale recently. Sometimes the agent might have taken one on a previous trip but it was not at the seller’s expense time-wise. It is efficient.

Here, we are expected to treat every youngster like a horse in training from day one. There are always threads on forums about breeders not handling their youngsters enough from some non-breeder’s perspective. Most setups are like mine where the raising and selling happens from the same farm. So, youngsters, even if not for sale, are kept tidy ($$), and are cared for much more individually, like a show horse. We also get inquiries from lots of buyers, many who eventually admit they are not really seriously looking after you have spent considerable time providing them with information. I don’t know why that person does not consider that the breeder’s time is worth money just as their own time is. I don’t linger at a table in a restaurant unless I am planning on compensating the server for that time! It is basic consideration but often forgotten in the passion of the “buyer” discussing one of their favorite subjects. The breeder may be equally passionate but has the added pressure of many expenses,chores, and things that always need to be done.

I don’t think there is a breeder around that would not be happy to follow the German model and have the riding horse braided and wrapped and ready to show to a qualified buyer. The difficulty lies in the fact that unless you are contacted through a reputable trainer, you have no idea if the buyer is serious or not. Everyone is struggling now and trying to stay afloat, taking half a day of farm time, not getting horses ridden or fields mowed is not a luxury that many can spare, especially since buyers seem to be very cost sensitive when shopping in the U.S. It is quite easy to forget that your ticket to Germany cost $800, you spent another $1200 on meals and hotels and then the $14,000 it cost once everything was said and done to get the mare you fell in love with to your barn. If you added that $16,000 into your U.S. shopping budget, it would put you in another category of animal or allow for a pretty fantastic trip while horse shopping here.

So, I guess that was a long-winded way to say that I think we are sometimes faced with unrealistic expectations here because all of our activities are visible from day one and that we don’t have a good qualified agent system that works! It would be great if there was a real marketing study done about the buying habits of actual purchasers in different price ranges but who would fund that? What we have to rely on is people’s opinion which is not even sorted by budget on forums like this. So the breeder’s struggle to keep costs down with the hope of breaking even and the serious buyer is frustrated by not having their inquiries handled as quickly as possible by a breeder who is facing a mountain of work undone because they spent many hours providing information or filming for someone who was “just curious and will keep it in mind if I sell…”

Nancy, will you be my new best friend?

That was a well-thought-out and thought-provoking post.

THank you.

sure ahf! thanks!

Ditto, Nancy. Very well thought out post that really hits home.

Absolutely love Nancy’s post!

[QUOTE=ahf;5866706]
Nancy, will you be my new best friend?

That was a well-thought-out and thought-provoking post.

THank you.[/QUOTE]

Me too!!

[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;5867200]
Me too!![/QUOTE]

Me three. Or four or five!

[QUOTE=3Dogs;5867437]
Me three. Or four or five![/QUOTE]

me 900th (or whichever we were on lol).

If I were in the market, I would be buying a bunch of youngsters right now right here in the US. There are some ridiculously good deals available and I have no idea why people are having so much trouble connecting with the right sellers/horses. I think a big problem is that a lot of buyers do not know how to evaluate youngsters, particularly the younger ones.

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;5867633]
If I were in the market, I would be buying a bunch of youngsters right now right here in the US. There are some ridiculously good deals available and I have no idea why people are having so much trouble connecting with the right sellers/horses. I think a big problem is that a lot of buyers do not know how to evaluate youngsters, particularly the younger ones.[/QUOTE]

I know!! Great time to buy.

Though I have terrible luck with prospects haha. All 3 of my most recent were bred, built and showed apptitude for the discipline. They didn’t however enjoy it, and therefore moved onto other careers. however, this is fairly rare I know lol.

[QUOTE=smokygirl;5867639]
I know!! Great time to buy.

Though I have terrible luck with prospects haha. All 3 of my most recent were bred, built and showed apptitude for the discipline. They didn’t however enjoy it, and therefore moved onto other careers. however, this is fairly rare I know lol.[/QUOTE]

You might consider getting someone to help you pick suitable ones. I know a few people who have a great eye for prospects and they really rarely miss.

As someone who has bought local, bought in Europe, bred local and bred from European stock, I’ll chip in my 2 cents.

Americans view horses as pets. As someone pointed out, foals are expected to be handled daily. There is no expectation of increase in price for this handling, no matter what age or how trained.

These buyers expect a weanling to walk a trail horse course by itself by voice commands and E.S.P., or it’s not considered “handled enough”.

Once it’s fully trained, people will then decide that you screwed up the foal because it was pushed too hard, too fast. This, of course, is your fault because you’ve now ruined it.

If you wait to work and “back” it, because it’s too young, the window between too soon and too late is about half a nanosecond, depending, of course, on who’s opinion you are currently listening to.

After the horse is broke to saddle, People expect to buy jaw dropping (but never ever ever ever ever hot) movement, correct and pretty to look at, kid safe in the barn, trained and maybe even shown training or 1st level, but the minute it leaves your farm it will go around in 20 meter circles at training level for the rest of it’s life.

In short, the buyers, especially as they learn more, are picky. I think that’s great, actually, because they should be able to more clearly see what horses are great and what horses are average. Yes, a stunning horse should command a high price, but an average horse should correspondingly be priced less. Our breeders need to evaluate and price accordingly, too.

In Europe, I think more people have a trained eye and more realistic expectations. Overall, too, correctly starting young horses under saddle simply isn’t the same challenge to them as it is to us. They have more young horse riders, and, frankly, more (sport) horses.

Then, support and promotion. They have it, we don’t. Our breed organizations are only minimally supportive of foal sales. Our riding clubs, auctions, we don’t have a network of trusted agents or established sales venues. Our GMO’s, magazines, etc… nobody has pulled it together yet on a large scale. Good horses here, bad horses there, exaggerated claims here, lame horses there-- buyers hate that. So, every breeder is an island. A very expensive gambling island.

I think it’s fair for breeders to expect home team support, but I think we need a major shift–our whole industry needs to raise it’s standards-- for the breeders to be accurate and realistic, for the buyers to be educated and civil, for the agents to active and honest, for the breed organizations to be supportive, for the riders and trainers to align talent and goals with appropriate mounts.

So, I guess that was a long-winded way to say that I think we are sometimes faced with unrealistic expectations here because all of our activities are visible from day one and that we don’t have a good qualified agent system that works! It would be great if there was a real marketing study done about the buying habits of actual purchasers in different price ranges but who would fund that? What we have to rely on is people’s opinion which is not even sorted by budget on forums like this. So the breeder’s struggle to keep costs down with the hope of breaking even and the serious buyer is frustrated by not having their inquiries handled as quickly as possible by a breeder who is facing a mountain of work undone because they spent many hours providing information or filming for someone who was “just curious and will keep it in mind if I sell…”

Nancy, I really wish I had a LIKE button :yes: :winkgrin:

If you wait to work and “back” it, because it’s too young, the window between too soon and too late is about half a nanosecond, depending, of course, on who’s opinion you are currently listening to.

This is painfully true! :frowning: So annoying.