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Sport Horse Breeding
#141

[QUOTE=Molly Malone;5861895]
I can’t handle a mare and foal and video camera at the same time. [/QUOTE]

Pffft excuses excuses :wink: I can handle a mare, foal, camera and eat a sandwich all at the same time - and the video comes out flawless.

Why is this so difficult. If a buyer is interested and wants to see media a seller doesn’t have, ask for it! If the seller can’t/won’t produce and that was important to you - move on - or if you are still interested let the seller know not having it is a deal breaker. If they are serious about SELLING, they will do it. Buyers are not mind readers. Sellers are not mind readers. COMMUNICATION. If a video from 6 months ago is a deal breaker and you MUST HAVE something more recent to consider the horse, lay it out there! If you get that video and DON’T say something how on earth are they supposed to know that their old video doesn’t cut it for you??

#142

As so frequently happens with COTH, this thread has taken on a life of its own. :smiley:

I think the OP got off on the wrong foot. She shouldn’t have written specifics (i.e., name of the person who purchased the foal, blah, blah, blah) and IMHO just stated her question.

What is it that we can do in North America to facilitate others to look here first? I think many of you answered that question (and more), which I appreciate because I too am always looking for ways to get better.

There are many opinions and suggestions, some are very good while others are quite harsh. Thanks for sharing and being part of my continuing education. :winkgrin:

#143

[QUOTE=Xanthoria;5862893]
So what I am reading is this:

Sellers: “We don’t want to spend hours cleaning up horses so we can sell them.”

Buyers: “Please don’t! We don’t care about a bit of hair or mud.”

Sellers: “You do care - I’m not even going to try to do as you ask, even though it’d take little time and potentially bring in money, because what you say it untrue and I feel I can get more money later on by doing more work… or not doing it…”

Buyers: “Please - we want to give you money! We want to buy American horses!”

Sellers: “Liars!”

Buyers: “Oh eff this… Where’s my passport…?”

:lol::lol::lol: :no:[/QUOTE]

Kind of… I think a lot of sellers are getting sick of having to jump through hoops for nothing. It sucks for buyers because it makes sellers more wary of buyers. then it sucks for sellers because buyers go elsewhere. then it sucks for buyers because sellers stop breeding/selling because there is no point.

It is a cycle, and a vicious one. Most sellers in the US are not doing this as a full time job, nor are they government funded (such as the many in europe are). It is hard for people to look at “normal” and compare it to a horse in a professional barn and not be blinded by the glitz. Obviously it is, or no one would do it for a profession. people buy that. Curb appeal is everything. Plus, the average COTH’r is what i would say… more educated. then the average person in the horse world, and sometimes they still post here, and ask questions and are blinded by it.

#144

But that’s a part of selling. The problem is people got into this thinking it would be a cinche to sell. I bought good mares in Europe. I’m using top stallions. Selling will be a breeze. What the heck people. And this isn’t limited to horses. It’s selling anything. Again, I repeat the European model is a business model. In any business you sell something. How else do we make money? That is why it’s different. Want to get the people heading to Europe to stay home. Run it like a business. People running successful businesses do not throw their hands up in the air and say, “but I don’t have time or the workforce”. They get it done.

Like I said, you get tire kickers from the 1k horse and the 100k horse. Why do you feel like you should be immune from time wasters and lookie lou’s? Nobody is immune. As horrible as it sounds, deal with it.

Terri

#145

[QUOTE=smokygirl;5862928]
Kind of… I think a lot of sellers are getting sick of having to jump through hoops for nothing. It sucks for buyers because it makes sellers more wary of buyers. then it sucks for sellers because buyers go elsewhere. then it sucks for buyers because sellers stop breeding/selling because there is no point.

It is a cycle, and a vicious one. Most sellers in the US are not doing this as a full time job, nor are they government funded (such as the many in europe are). It is hard for people to look at “normal” and compare it to a horse in a professional barn and not be blinded by the glitz. Obviously it is, or no one would do it for a profession. people buy that. Curb appeal is everything. Plus, the average COTH’r is what i would say… more educated. then the average person in the horse world, and sometimes they still post here, and ask questions and are blinded by it.[/QUOTE]

Apparently, I’m not done.

Listen…I get that its frustrating. There are unreasonable sellers, tire-kickers and good intentioned indecisive folks. And even among the serious buyers, you can do everything right and still not get a sale. It may just be that your horse doesn’t appeal or that another horse is more suited. But there is nothing to be gained from giving up and it would probably serve you well to make an effort to keep your expectations reasonable and to remember that your potential buyers have likely all been burned on another sale/potential sale.

In an ideal world, a buyer wouldn’t visit their previous horrors upon you…but then, you probably wouldn’t bring your baggage from previous potential buyers to the table either.

You also can’t do anything about those people that are attracted to shiny things…unless you can match the shiny. But if you can’t, then you simply need to figure out how to attract the buyers that won’t be blinded by the meaningless details. And, given that you don’t also have to carry the costs of all that flash, you can likely be more competitive on the pricing front. People who want the flash, can pony up the extra cash.

#146

OK we also have to stop with this, it’s mostly government funded. Certain aspects but I’d love for all the Euro’s to read how their breeding endevours are all government funded. And I can tell you in case you haven’t noticed Europe ain’t doing to well. Money in the budget is not going to go for breeding horses.

I remember reading in my Thoroughbred Breeders’ Association handbook a long time ago that they helped out with things like vet exams and selling ect. I was like, hey how cool is that. I called and got, “oh yeah that, can I have someone call you back?” I’m still waiting on that call. I think you guys read certain things and take them for fact. But really we need Alexandra to clear up exactly what is paid for in Germany.

As far as here I’m pretty sure the grants stopped about the time the country was heading towards economic ruin. Grants for a horse who was approved as a stallion and grants for mare’s who were approved. Like a one off payment. That was to get good horses to stay in the country. Well supposedly but I can put out feelers and get the complete details. But if you think someone is out there paying vet bills, paying costs for raising baby, paying for training, and paying for photoshoots. Well I think you’ve got it a little backwards. But also the government knows that horses are a big part of bringing money into the country so you may have to realise that. Not so much back home and that won’t change.

Terri

Again, it’s another excuse.

#147

A little fact to add to this discussion: many companies have bigger budgets for sales and advertising than they do for research and development.

Most buyers (and this applies to any product) cannot see beyond the presentation in front of them. Its called “buying the sizzle”. And that’s with objects that are known value items such as chocolate bars and pairs of trousers. Its why medications that are supposed to be calming are sold in blue or green packets and medications supposed to give you more energy are sold in red and gold packaging. Marketing makes a difference! Its a multi-billion dollar industry.

When you are dealing with a non-known value item such as a horse, buying becomes far more difficult and frightening. Buyers know they can buy a superstar or a money pit. Marketing matters. Building up trust between the potential buyer and the seller matters. This is why when you walk onto any yard that charges very high prices for their horses they have hanging baskets outside the stables and gold paint on the doors. The horses, if under saddle, are always spotless and usually plaited up. It all adds to the sizzle factor. It says “the horses here are worth a lot of money!”

When selling young horses the potential buyer will be seriously put off if their enquiry for a video or more photos is declined or a video is sent several weeks later. The implication of both the above events is that the breeder is sloppy, disorganised and so the horses, by implication, are considered less valuable than those who are presented like potential Olympic horses. That assumption may be completely wrong but it is the assumption that the majority of buyers will make.

The bottom line is that if you want to sell horses for high prices you have to present them like horses who are worth a lot of money.

#148

And I’d posit that sellers would get a lot fewer of what many call tire kickers and lookie-lous if they had a web site and good pics and video.

In other words, most tire kickers are actually BUYERS with insufficient information from the seller, and who have had to drive long distances to see for themselves… and were disappointed. If someone doesn’t buy your horse when they see it, it’s because it fell short of the description.

Show me one person in the USA today who has time to kill and money to burn on gas to go travelling hither and yon to diddle around looking at horse after horse.

#149

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5861992]
And come on people, do you all not have any horsie friends? Seriously, I’m on my own as are some of my friends. We tend to help each other in more difficult situations than a couple of 20 second uploads. As long as you have tea and something to eat, you have people to spend a couple of hours with you. And god bless the Irish because at least they will go, geez Ter that looks like crap on camera. I wouldn’t buy her. Ok redo.

Terri[/QUOTE]

Had to laugh at that one. If it comes to foaling season and I visit my horses at kareen’s place the story normallz goes as follwing:
I have taken mare A,B,C,D and E into the barn, XYZ will help cleaning them do you have time to do footage of them with me ? Ooooo-kay… Do zou have a different t-shirt than for me ? And than we start doing what needs to be done. Honestly after a few years doing this and knowing each other - it may be sometimes strage for “foreign” people to watch us, because we may even yell at each other. :wink: Buuut this year there was one day were wen finished pics and video of 4 foals plus cleaning them up (Kareen"S apprentice helped) in 2 hours. And you can easily check out those videos on her homepage or her facebook side. It is “just” a matter of starting it…

#150

And I owe you a big thank you for all the stuff you did with my girls and Quantum at Kareen’s. :yes::yes::yes:

#151

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5862685]
… Tidy mane, banged tail, and clean brushed coat are all that’s required. Bridle maybe, but probably headcollar and rope. Getting them to stand in a position long enough to get good pics is difficult yes, but the rest of the stuff, come on now. Really?

You guys are making things way too difficutl and then throwing your hands up in the air and saying nobody wants to buy. That’s why they go to Europe.

Terri[/QUOTE]

This. Exactly!

#152

after reading more posts done after this one - I will explain why it takes us not that much time:

Mares and foals are in hand on a regular basis - hence no time needed to train on day x video day (or we sort of do train them while videotaping or preparing for, meaning they gt more used to being handled).
mares have mstly decently pulled manes and get brushed, plus a bit hooves cleaned if reallz muddy (add oil onto them). Foals get feet washed if needed, oil on it. Coat cleaned and maybe brushed. No halter on the foal, unless we think it is needed (but if so they know the halter and it is no issue). Mare gets a clean halter or bridle after cleaned and off we go. Halter or bridle depends a bit on the mare. On huuuge Sandro Hit mare with her huge stride I prefer a briddle so that I can handle her with a bit less effort (meaning she reacts faster to the bit and I can concentrate on running not clinging to the halter). But she reacts also great to the voice so sometime we just put a halter on.
Than we lead mare and foal back and forth in the yard to tape correctness and get them going and the idea that they should run on the side of the mare we want them to. Than we go in the field or on the street to trot and than walk. Sometimes if we have a free hand, we include footage of the cleaning session.
This summer my Romanov qualified for the foal of the day in regards of getting his feet and legs wahsed and getting to know the waterhose.

And breeders should not just see the effort in that kind of process, you do something “educational” to your horse/foal at the verz same time !

#153

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5862955]
OK we also have to stop with this, it’s mostly government funded. Certain aspects but I’d love for all the Euro’s to read how their breeding endevours are all government funded. And I can tell you in case you haven’t noticed Europe ain’t doing to well. Money in the budget is not going to go for breeding horses.

I remember reading in my Thoroughbred Breeders’ Association handbook a long time ago that they helped out with things like vet exams and selling ect. I was like, hey how cool is that. I called and got, “oh yeah that, can I have someone call you back?” I’m still waiting on that call. I think you guys read certain things and take them for fact. But really we need Alexandra to clear up exactly what is paid for in Germany.

As far as here I’m pretty sure the grants stopped about the time the country was heading towards economic ruin. Grants for a horse who was approved as a stallion and grants for mare’s who were approved. Like a one off payment. That was to get good horses to stay in the country. Well supposedly but I can put out feelers and get the complete details. But if you think someone is out there paying vet bills, paying costs for raising baby, paying for training, and paying for photoshoots. Well I think you’ve got it a little backwards. But also the government knows that horses are a big part of bringing money into the country so you may have to realise that. Not so much back home and that won’t change.

Terri

Again, it’s another excuse.[/QUOTE]

Oh I know it’s not huge grants (and i have no idea about Ireland)… but even a 1 time grant to be able to better afford getting mares approved, or stallions approved, is helpful. It is helpful that there were programs in place in Germany and Poland (and probably other countries) that may not be there anymore, but that helped build the barns, and the quality of riders and handlers, etc.

We have to compete with that, and it hurts. As does the larger aspect of the United States. (You could fit all of Europe into America… minus mexico and canada… and still have room to spare). And the horse population, imo, is more segmented. There are not (though it’s growing) huge quantities of Reining or Cutting horses in Europe, not many gaited breeds, not really a huge saddleseat population, etc. The horse interest here is more spread out. Which is good and bad.

I do think sellers need to be much more reasonable though, but so do buyers.

Buyers:
-If you expect to get a “blinged” out horse that is clipped, has impeccable videos, and pro photos… Don’t be shocked when you have to pay for that.

-Offering less than half the asking price for a horse, and throwing a tantrum when it isnt excepted, because your friend’s friend bought a better horse for less, is not acceptable.

-If you have sent 30 emails that are all one line and ask questions that are already in the ad, don’t be surprised if you get ignored.

-While we all wish we had endless time to hand hold, it’s not always an option. be specific in your requests. For instance if you need 20 pictures of the face of the horse…so you can get a feel for if he is “the one” let the seller know that (then they can post it on COTH so we can all have a laugh haha). But seriously… calling for up to date shots of a yearling in January to someone in MN, is going to get you laughed at. You want to see him trot too? where? there is 5’ of snow out. It is not bad to ask for video, or photos, but be sure you are seriously interested if you do, particularly with smaller farms that dont have a staff to do this and have to haul to an arena and take a day off work to get this. If you don’t like what you see… tell the seller. Say “thank you, i really don’t think he’s what i’m looking for, but thank you for taking the time to get that”. dont just drop off the face of the earth.

-Be reasonable with your “must haves” list. For instance, the majority of breeders, are not riding there 2 year olds and it would be an innappropriate lead line pony for your 3 yo, no matter how cute it is for them to grow up together. If you are absolutely certain you want a palomino QH for reining, don’t email about a Saddleseat (Park) horse that is Bay, ask me for all the videos, email and call me 40 times, then tell me you really wanted a palomino. (yes… it happens). If you are sure you want a 17hh horse, don’t call about my arabian. (especially given that the ad says 14.3).

-Don’t be offended that you are told, this isn’t the horse for you, and try to rail road the seller into taking a day out of their time to show it to you. No matter how cute you find my red dun QH cutting prospect, no she is not suitable for dressage for amateurs. No my working cowhorse is not a candidate for barrel racing. and no my arabian colt that is with a dressage trainer is not going to Win the Triple Crown (even the Arabian Triple Crown), be ready to Ride in the Tevis, or be the futurity reining horse, or an international caliber halter horse. If he was, he’d be in training for those, not for dressage. (thankfully I did find homes for all of them … just took awhile). And be reasonable, you are not going to find a horse that can do Saddleseat, reining, HUS, and barrels… well. Certainly some horses could do a little of them, but they aren’t going to compete at the upper levels of the sport always.

-Be reasonable about your goals with the horse. If you are riding training level, and are happy there, and want a horse priced to do training level and 1st level… don’t look at FEI Potential horses doing 4th level. Calling and offering training level prices, because that’s all you are going to do, isn’t amusing.

Sellers:

  • be honest about what you have. Your weanling, doesn’t have Grand Prix potential yet. Dressage potential maybe, but saying it can go all the way, makes you look like an idiot, as there are way too many variables.

-when advertising on non-specific sites (dreamhorse for instance) you do not look good if you check mark every discipline. Western Riding check, dressage check, hunter jumper check, etc… It makes you look like you have no idea what the horse looks like.

-be honest about your prices. Call other breeders with similar horses, or the farm standing the stallion you used, etc, and find out what they are getting. If you are not negotiable, then mark firm. If you are, be upfront with what you are negotiable on. Are you negotiable if they are a BNT and will ride your horse at the olympics, or if they provide a forever home, or etc. etc. If you are, advise people of that. if you are having trouble, ask for help. Way too many people just throw a number on horses and have no idea why they are, except that they heard that’s what people will pay for a horse that does XXX and this horse has potential to do XXX.

-Accurately measure your horse. having someone fly out to see a horse that is advertised at 16.3 and showing them a horse that is 15.3, rearing and measured at the nose, makes you look like a moron. Bonus points for moron-itis if you say that you are sure that your pony is a small, and they show up and he’s 14.2hh, etc.

-Describe your horse well. If i see another add with flawless conformation, no vices, etc… i may scream. Be honest. If the horse is not for amateurs, state that. Dont beat around the bush about stuff like that.

-Photos are important. So is video. Have it. And yes, if you need a pro to help do it, it is reasonable to charge more for the horse.

#154

Sorry about the typos, am using an american keyboard that has some keys differently especially y and Z are just on each others place…

Mary Lou - no problem with that. We enjoy those days also and have fun… especiallz when Kareen finishes up what we got from the session on the computer.

#155

oooooh not again this tale of subsidaries and grants in Europe. I have no idea how often I explained about that alreay hear. I have been riding for more than 35 years now. My first foal crop was born in 99.
I have yet not received anz grant or such with one exception. Some money 250 for one SPS mare. Buuut that money comes from the Verband, so a breeders “union” not the state.

I can not even set up a business for horsebreeding as long as I do not have a horsefarm that is approved to be counting as such. (and Boy I tell "ya, you will not come by that one in an easy way.) This means all that I put into breeding is moneY I have earned in my job and have paid taxes upon. I cna not deduct anything nor can I put my losses against my regular income.

#156

[QUOTE=alexandra;5863036]
oooooh not again this tale of subsidaries and grants in Europe. I have no idea how often I explained about that alreay hear. I have been riding for more than 35 years now. My first foal crop was born in 99.
I have yet not received anz grant or such with one exception. Some money 250 for one SPS mare. Buuut that money comes from the Verband, so a breeders “union” not the state.

I can not even set up a business for horsebreeding as long as I do not have a horsefarm that is approved to be counting as such. (and Boy I tell "ya, you will not come by that one in an easy way.) This means all that I put into breeding is moneY I have earned in my job and have paid taxes upon. I cna not deduct anything nor can I put my losses against my regular income.[/QUOTE]

Right, and you are a private breeder, correct?

I know in Poland, and i thought in Germany as well, that there are also “state run” breeding programs.

#157

Who gives a hoot about across the pond… let’s get back to the topic at hand! BUY AMERICAN! JUST DO IT! :yes:

#158

[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;5863011]
And I owe you a big thank you for all the stuff you did with my girls and Quantum at Kareen’s. :yes::yes::yes:[/QUOTE]

I too must extend MANY THANKS to Kareen and Alexandra for all they do with Wakaluba et al! We DO appreciate you both very much! :smiley:

#159

[QUOTE=smokygirl;5863041]
Right, and you are a private breeder, correct?

I know in Poland, and i thought in Germany as well, that there are also “state run” breeding programs.[/QUOTE]
I am a private breeder, but that is what most are when they are not farmers. To become a professional breeder as said takes a lot of things that you seldomly can come by this status.

There are stallion stations like the state stud, but they needs to run with a profit. Otherwise closed down. A breeding program that is state owned I am not aware of. Maybe the marebach state stud Arabian mare band. But I would need to check on that one to be honest.

#160

[QUOTE=okggo;5861708]
Has anyone had a sale actually come from a one-liner e-mail? [/QUOTE]

I did. More than once. :wink:

Think of it, a lot people reply to ads on iPhones and the like… Hardly the suitable technology to get long winded! :slight_smile:

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