Calming supplements that are ACTUALLY working for you?

Careful with the magnesium - I’m guessing you could do a blood test to ensure the horse actually has a deficiency. If a horse is not deficient though, it can have the opposite effect. My friend gave her horse a magnesium supplement to calm him, and it made him crazy. He was biting, bucking, spooking, and at one point, tried to lay down with her son on him. The horse would not get up! None of this is typical behavior for this particular horse, and when my friend called Smartpak, they said that some horses can be sensitive to magnesium when they don’t need to be supplemented.

Have you tried the Smartpak supplements for calming? I would look into those.

Since it is a mare, perhaps it is hormonal. You could check out that avenue.

Otherwise, some horses just do get wired in the winter. My horse has a lot more energy when it is cold out. Ground work, as someone mentioned before, could help get your mare’s attention on you. Dom Schramm said that at a rising trot, doing a “sit, sit, post” pattern can help slow a horse’s gait. Perhaps even some lunging or free lunging would help.

Unfortunately, while many horses are hot, it does sound like the long-term solution would be training and working on the issue rather than shadowing the symptoms with medications.

[QUOTE=DarkBayUnicorn;9041314]
Be careful! You’re NOT allowed to give depo to show geldings and stallions anymore.[/QUOTE]

I don’t see that such a rule change is in effect yet

[QUOTE=Scribbler;9040572]
I’ve done a fair bit of ground work, and watched others do it with horses that are hotter and spookier than my horse, and it absolutely does work. I mean the kind of slow quiet work with props and obstacles that trains the horse to understand that you are never going to put him in a dangerous situation, but you might ask him to do some odd stuff. Also that gives both of you a protocol for coming back down to quiet after a scare. The more the horse gets exposed to, the less will startle him. Western trail and working ranch trainers put a lot of time into this phase of training, but English competitive disciplines as a rule don’t, and tend to assume that the level of nervousness or spookiness in a given horse is just a constant. Now I realize that horses will spook bigger on days they have lots of energy, and will be more wound up on cold or windy days. And some of them will spook for fun, or as an evasion. But some attention to “training for courage” will reduce that, even if it doesn’t eliminate it forever and in all situations.[/QUOTE]

Nice post. And the bolded part is so true. I’m amazed and bummed to realize how much was missing from my English-centered horsemanship education. And until a couple of years ago, I don’t think you would have seen a post like Scribbler’s posted here.

The groundwork stuff (understood a slightly different way than described above) has made a huge difference for me and the horses I ride and handle. The way I see it, lots of what these good, western riders do is teach the horse that the safest place to be is focused on his rider or handler. They don’t spook because they are taught to not look to the outside world with defensiveness, rather they look to the rider or handler to tell them how things are going to go.

[QUOTE=cswoodlandfairy;9041010]
Mac123-

Yes, the Shen Calm is legal. All of the ingredients that are in the supplement are not on the prohibited list. Trust me I do my job, research, READ and check. So before you go casting stones, know your facts.

I have ASKED at the rated shows if it was legal as my horse is getting tested at that moment. I never had a problem with it and they said as long as the substances are not on the prohibited list then they are fine. This supplement does not affect my horses ability. He is 100% safe. He still has is spunk and “hotness” if that’s what you want to call it.

So while your on your high horse of everything is illegal that is fine, but don’t push your thoughts on me who has taken the time to be sure. I deal with plenty of issues that he does that I do not “drug” or “enhance” as that is apart of him (Thank you track days). I just am a knowledgeable individual that just ensures safety no matter what.

Take your judging somewhere else. OP asked a simple question, stated the known facts and wants an opinion whether its a vitamin deficiency or if something else out there works.[/QUOTE]

Listen, I’m not trying to offend you. My understanding of rule GR410:1:A is that any substance given which alters the performace of a horse are illegal, regardless of whether it is a testable prohibited substance.

If I’ve misunderstood this rule, and the myriad of COTH discussions regarding how things like PP are technically against the rules but unenforceable, then please, educate me!

Asking whether a product will test is a different question than asking if, by the spirit and intention of the rules, it actually should be given. I wonder if you emailed USEF and asked the drug line what they would say. I’m genuinely curious, so if you ask, I’d love to know the answer.

GR410:1:a
Forbidden:
Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic substance or drug which might affect the performance of a horse or pony or any metabolite or and/or analogue of any such substance or drug except as expressly permitted by this rule.

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At your service Mac123. I was asking specifically about Perfect Prep. I initially asked if Perfect Prep was legal and that I wanted to used it to calm my horse before going into the ring. She responded asking me which formula of PP I wanted to use and for a complete list of ingredients. I responded with formula and list of ingredients and got the answer below (copied verbatim from the email. I only edited out my and her names.

This doesn’t address the Shen Calm specifically, but I would wager that the conversation would be the same. If you asked “is this legal?” They would ask for the ingredients and would then determine legality based on whether or not the ingredients are on any banned or controlled lists. If, however, you also state the reason you are using this supplement with these ingredients is to calm your horse, they will indicate as above…ingredients are allowed, but using them for the purpose of calming violates the spirit and intent of the rule.

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Nothing you feed with the intent of changing the horse’s mentality in any way is usef “legal”. If you need a supplement for ring success at best it’s a crutch for crippled training and at worst it’s flat cheating. (Well, worst of worst you supplement a horse into such stoicism they trip/fall/flip over a jump… but if you’d rather have a ribbon than a drug free partner that’s a risk you take, and even sober horses trip and flip occasionally.)

I show the hottest of hot chestnut thoroughbred mare on nothing more than aloe juice and vitamin E/selenium in her normal feed (grass pellets and nutrena pro force fuel). Her supplements are to balance her electrolyte chemistry, not to keep her calm. I maintain her on vita-calm at home because it has a suitable combination of minerals and aminos that helps with her internal chemistry, but it doesn’t have a noticeable impact on her mentality and she has to come off it since the tryptophan it contains is on the banned list.

Maybe work on what management and handling helps keep your horse calm and level. My chestnut mare likes to see the ring area before we go to do a class and doesn’t like to be groomed, so I handwalk and groom her early and keep a scrim or cooler on her so I can just towel her before tacking up. We spent more than a year finding the right bit, and twice as long working on the canter. She was introduced to showing slowly before I ever took her in the ring. Doing it right takes time people don’t want to spend.

Sticking with the question that was asked…

Yes, I have seen good results with Zylkene. I am a believer in it. I’ve seen it work in dogs and cats too!

[QUOTE=Scribbler;9040572]
I’ve done a fair bit of ground work, and watched others do it with horses that are hotter and spookier than my horse, and it absolutely does work. I mean the kind of slow quiet work with props and obstacles that trains the horse to understand that you are never going to put him in a dangerous situation, but you might ask him to do some odd stuff. Also that gives both of you a protocol for coming back down to quiet after a scare. The more the horse gets exposed to, the less will startle him. Western trail and working ranch trainers put a lot of time into this phase of training, but English competitive disciplines as a rule don’t, and tend to assume that the level of nervousness or spookiness in a given horse is just a constant. Now I realize that horses will spook bigger on days they have lots of energy, and will be more wound up on cold or windy days. And some of them will spook for fun, or as an evasion. But some attention to “training for courage” will reduce that, even if it doesn’t eliminate it forever and in all situations.[/QUOTE]

This, bold is mine – exactly.

As someone who almost exclusively rides hot & forward horses, let me tell you that their baseline spookiness is anything but. You can easily manipulate their spookiness… you just have to have time + patience. Most horses want to work with you, but not many horses are given a reason to (other than to get you to cease and desist in your nagging aids) - groundwork paves the way to have a horse that understands what you ask them is A. always fair B. always painless and C. always rewarding.

Yes, some horses are more challenging than others, and yes, some horses will NOT be the quiet deadpan horse some riders want… but the appropriate management and training will do a lot to change the horse’s base “hotness” level.

I love the hot and forward horses - and I agree with MVP… if you are trying to adjust her “calmness level” that completely and wholly violates the spirit of the rule if you are competing… if you are not competing, medicate away. :yes:

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Here is the info on Shen Calm. Thank you Google. http://franklintnvet.com/shen-calmer-treats-anxiety-nervousness-dogs-cats-horses/

This was the link I found for Shen calmer. The three ingredients listed here translate as jujube berry, oyster shells, and gogi berries.

http://www.wholehorse.com/store/p22/Calm_Shen.html

I’m unclear who actually makes Shen Calm or Calm Shen. Is it from whole horse, or is it a general name for Chinese-influenced herbal potions?

I own what would be considered potentially a hot, sometimes sharp horse, an OTTB. And he does have his moments, sometimes, and can go from dead calm to thinking he might need to run away from something in a flash. Really horrifying things include a water bucket that has moved. His first show with me, a very low key schooling show, he was nervous wreck. Five outings later, he is relaxed, he is fine. No calming agents used. The outings have all been with the idea of keeping it low key and calm for him, not to be competitive. From his track days he is beautifully desensitized to a number of things including large equipment, close quarters and confined spaces, horses acting weirdly and excitedly, his blankets getting wrapped around a hind leg, etc, etc. Knowing my horse he did not start off calm and cool about these things-- likely just the opposite. A horse can be trained to be calm and accepting of new things, a certain environment, etc. Will it be 100 per cent calm 100 per cent of the time? Probably no, it is still a horse-- but it is amazing what patient desensitizing work can achieve. Time and patience are great calmness inducers.

When I look at the various calming supplements people mention, all of them except for the Zylkene (milk protein) and the Shen Calmer (herbal blend) are based on magnesium. My reference book suggests magnesium citrate is the most bio-available form. And as others have noted, there absolutely can be individual reactions to deliberate overdoses of magnesium, though apparently it is not particularly dangerous.

If I felt that my horse’s behavior might be the result of a magnesium deficiency, here I think is how I would proceed.

First, I would crunch the numbers on my hay, grain, and mineral/vitamin supplement to see if there was a deficiency “on paper.” That would require getting the hay tested, and e-mailing the feed mills for the nutritional break down of the feeds, or using FeedXL if the feeds were on that database.

Second, I would crunch the numbers of the other minerals in my feed, to make sure I wasn’t going to throw other minerals out of whack. At this point I might phone the very helpful nutritionists at my local farmer’s co-op!

If there was an obvious deficit of anything on paper, I would make sure that deficit was remedied.

If there wasn’t an obvious deficit on paper, I would focus on the more obvious elements of energy management first. Does the horse get a chance to gallop around with no rider on a regular basis, or is “turnout” just standing in a dry lot with a hay net watching the world go by? I would make sure the young horse had a chance to get the wiggles out every day. If that didn’t fix the problem, I would cut the diet back to just plain grass hay for a few weeks, plus a scant handful of whatever you need to carry the regular vitamin/mineral supplement. At the same time, I’d be doing intensive ground work to address the spookiness. If I didn’t know where to start, I’d find a good-natured western trainer to help me, a common-sense sort of person, not an acolyte of one of the more programmed programs.

One of the posters above made the really good point that you want to horse to look to you for advice when something alarming happens, not just high tail it out of there.

If increasing the work, decreasing the concentrated calories, and doing some “training for courage” didn’t help, then it would be time to see if magnesium would help. As one of the posters pointed out, you don’t have any guarantee what’s in any given supplement. So I would try to find food or human or pharmaceutical grade magnesium (as I said, citrate seems to be the most bio-available) and figure out the right dosage, and try that for a few weeks, watching carefully, and not changing any other factor. Since magnesium seems to be a low-risk additive, I probably wouldn’t bother with a blood test, just try to see if it made a difference.

Of course, by that time it would be spring, and the change in weather by itself could easily make my hot horse much calmer!

But one thing I wouldn’t do, would be trying out different brands of magnesium-based calming supplements, because they all have the same ingredient, and if one doesn’t work on your horse, the others won’t work either.

Of the other supplements, the Zylkene milk protein sounds intruiging, because there seems to be some clear scientific evidence that it works cross species. I am leery about the Shen Calmer, though, because the explanation for how it works does not fit my understanding of how the body functions.

My own horse is not hot, but when I reflect back on my time with her, it’s been fairly obvious how to manage her energy levels. When I started riding her, she was six, and we had some bouncy bouncy moments that made me nervous. We cut back her oats, I longed her before I rode, gave her buck and run turnout with her buddies as much as possible, and tried to work her every day. The past year or two, I’ve wanted her to have more energy, and have found that she is a different horse if she gets four rides on, one day off, and more oats. I know all the nutritionists say “oats don’t make horses hotter,” but most people’s experience is that they do, and thank goodness for that, I say!

But I also have to say, that I don’t think that a horse being “hot” means that it is unhealthy, unhappy, in pain, or has a nutritional imbalance. Absolutely the opposite! Horses are “hot” when they are healthy and feel full of themselves, and unless their “hotness” is getting them punished by their riders, they are really happy when they are hot, especially if they are running loose in a place they can really bolt and buck and squeal. You don’t want all of that under saddle, agreed.

And some horses are too hot for some riders. I don’t have a young OTTB, for exactly that reason. I’ve watched too many riders at our barn come to grief with them; there just isn’t enough room; when the horse gets wired to the point that the owner is afraid to handwalk him down to the attended turnout arena, things do not go well. And a calming supplement, in the absence of intelligent management or the right horse/rider match, is not going to have much effect.

[QUOTE=vxf111;9041417]
I don’t see that such a rule change is in effect yet[/QUOTE]

It is in effect in Canada, and coming to the USA: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?508490-Anyone-hear-anything-about-USEF-ban-on-Depo-Provara-amp-Regumate

[QUOTE=DarkBayUnicorn;9041826]
It is in effect in Canada, and coming to the USA: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?508490-Anyone-hear-anything-about-USEF-ban-on-Depo-Provara-amp-Regumate[/QUOTE]

I have not seen anything official from the USE, let alone a start date announced. It’s somewhat academic to me as I don’t have a horse on Depo, but if there’s a formal rule change announced I’d like to see it. So far there seems to be just second-hand information/speculation. Even if this was discussed in a meeting, that doesn’t mean it’s happening. And it certainly doesn’t mean it’s the rule NOW. Your post was in the PRESENT tense, “you can’t give it.” As of right now, at least in the US, you can. That might change, but at the moment it’s allowed.

I don’t show in Canada so I obviously don’t know what the situation is there. Pretty much all of my posts on COTH, unless the OP SAYS they’re in another country, assume we’re talking about the states

Groundwork is fantastic. But also better flatwork/dressage will help reduce spookiness considerably. If the horse is focusing on and listening to you, he won’t notice the scary stuff. Horses are not good multitaskers.

nearly all my spook-related falls have occurred walking or trotting on a loose rein, when I was not really “on it.”

that’s why before I start taking my horses out and about I have them to where I can get them forward and between my hand and leg well at home. in addition to being engaged, if a horse is going forward and is between your hand and leg they are in a “safe space” where their minds are on you and where you are the “leader” of what is happening. Plus, a horse that is going forward is MUCH less likely to spook.

Watch Euro riders at stallion shows, especially on the younger horses…those are often very hot horses in a huge stadium-type scary situation but the horses are forward and between the hand and leg, and take the environment surprisingly well.

FEI set an Irish rider down for Depo in a gelding last month. You can’t argue there’s any other reason to give Depo to a gelding other then influencing their behavior, doesn’t interrupt their reproductive cycle as it does with mares. Know some geldings, lots actually, get an awful lot of shots year round with handlers/owners openly saying it’s to control their behavior.

Probably time on that one.

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Shen Calm and Shen Calmer are by two different companies. The Shen Calm is the original version that was made first, but soon another company created something similar and named it Shen Calmer. They do the same thing, but I am not 100% sure if the ingredients are exactly the same. I do know they are both herbal. If I can find an old container I can share it. I do have the container for Body Sore easily handy if you wanted something to start off of.

I have nothing to say about horse calmers but I did try Shen Calm on one of my dogs and it made him enraged. He was bizarre and angry until we took him off and he went back to being his normal neurotic self. N=1, where the 1 is a dog, not a horse, but there you go.

[QUOTE=egrubbs;9041103]
I’m gonna play devils advocate here…then wouldn’t you consider any supplements, USEF legal or not, treats, grain, hay, etc. performance from enhancing? Oh and let’s not forget about injections, chiropractic, massage, cold laser, shockwave, etc fall under that category as well? Last, but not to be forgotten…gastrogard :D[/QUOTE]

This is always my issue with the way the rule is written. Everything we do nutritionally could be performance enhancing. Horse lacks energy and needs weight? Add some alfalfa. Alfalfa makes him hot? Take him off that and try beet pulp instead. Horse struggles in the heat? Give him electrolytes. Increasing feed, decreasing feed, adding various supplements.

Everything we do as a management technique, is intended to be performance enhancing in some way. We want them to get the best diet to compete at their best. So where’s the line in the sand? Drugs obviously not, but all-natural supplements whose ingredients are all legal? The rule is so all-encompassing that it puts pretty much everything you feed the horse into a grey area IMO. If they don’t want that grey area, they should reconsider the way that rule is written.

In particular, read this FEI tribunal decision on Jock Paget’s disqualification from Badminton on Clifton Promise due to traces of Reserpine in his system. It’s 36 pages so here’s a summary: Jock Paget used a supplement called LessStressE on Promise, who was know to stress leading up to and during an event, and go off his feed. The LessStressE was marketed as a balancer but many riders used it as a calmer, and it did apparently help Promise from stressing and going off his feed.

LessStressE had no illegal ingredients. Jock had done his due diligence in making sure it was legal, including talking to his vet, the NZ team vet, the NZ team nutritionist, the manufacturer, the NZ national federation who checks the Prohibited Substances list, etc etc, and several other riders who used it with success. He had used it for quite sometime prior to this incident and had been tested on it a few times, and all results had previously been negative.

At Badminton, he won and was tested, and they found Reserpine in the horse’s system. Through a LOT of footwork at his and his owner’s expense, he managed to establish that the LessStressE had been contaminated with Reserpine at the manufacturing stage and there was no reasonable way for him to be responsible for that after having done everything reasonable to establish it was safe to use for competition. He also argues that the line between feed and supplements is blurred.

The FEI tribunal ended up agreeing with him. They also explicitly state that they felt he was giving LessStressE in order to enhance his performance. Yet his suspension and fine were lifted and dismissed. So the FEI itself clearly ruled that giving a supplement with the intent of enhancing performance is allowable provided a person has done all reasonable legwork to determine the product has no prohibited substances.

And honestly, everything we feed them can have performance enhancing qualities. I give my horse Gastrogard on a trailer trip to a show because he stresses, it makes his tummy upset, and his performance suffers. I give my horse electrolytes in his daily feed, and then I also give him a tube prior to running cross country on a hot day because he drinks more water and therefore stays hydrated, feels better during his run. And then sometimes I give him another tube after when it’s really hot to help replenish his lost electroylytes quickly, keeping his cell chemistry balanced so that he doesn’t feel awful and instead feels good to show jump better the following day.

So where’s the line? I’m giving these supplements with the intent of enhancing my horse’s performance. (And no, I don’t give calmer, but I also don’t see how the current rule is enforceable and therefore can’t see the point in vilifying anyone who tries to manage their horses mood through nutrition.)

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