Calming supplements that are ACTUALLY working for you?

I’m gonna play devils advocate here…then wouldn’t you consider any supplements, USEF legal or not, treats, grain, hay, etc. performance from enhancing? Oh and let’s not forget about injections, chiropractic, massage, cold laser, shockwave, etc fall under that category as well? Last, but not to be forgotten…gastrogard

But based on the information below, I don’t think you can say that unless your feed, hay and treats are filled with stimulants, depressants, tranquilizers, local anesthetics and/or psychotropic substances.

GR410:1:a
Forbidden:
Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic substance or drug which might affect the performance of a horse or pony or any metabolite or and/or analogue of any such substance or drug except as expressly permitted by this rule.

ETA, meant to include the other items on the list above, - massage, gastroguard, etc.

[QUOTE=Divine Comedy;9042095]

So where’s the line? I’m giving these supplements with the intent of enhancing my horse’s performance. (And no, I don’t give calmer, but I also don’t see how the current rule is enforceable and therefore can’t see the point in vilifying anyone who tries to manage their horses mood through nutrition.)[/QUOTE]

I don’t think the line is blurry.

Anything you want to do in order to restore the horse to his normal state of health is fine. No one thinks the contest ought to be “Which horse can perform, even with ulcers or dehydrated?” So we’ll accept treatments that merely restore the horse to his baseline health. I suppose, then, you can give enough Magnesium to restore your horse to normal levels; giving more, of course, violates this criterion.

The reason NSAIDs are not allowed is not because we don’t want to be the contest to be “Which horse can perform best while injured,” but because we don’t want to mask pain that helps the horse compete while hurt (or arthritic) and which will contribute to the destruction of his body.

That’s quite different from a substance that influences the mind or emotions or central nervous system of a horse. We do want the contest to be “Which horse performs the best because he knows is job?”

If you wanted to get quite hard about it (and perhaps we should), this is a question of selective breeding. A line of horses that produced mares that are unrideable while they are in season are, perhaps, not breeding quality.

Also, we would do well to look at what we (now) think is normal management for horse and a normal amount of skill and fitness required of riders. Have we inadvertently changed the contest to “Which horse can pack around a sub-par rider safely and charitably… with no turnout”?

Again, I don’t think it takes too much thought to understand why the USEF has created the D & M rules that it has.

If you give enough magnesium to restore the horse to normal levels, and that fixes his behavior, that’s great. It means his battiness was due to an actual deficiency, and now everything is fine. But you can’t give too much magnesium to a horse and get even more calm. You either get no change, or you get diarrhea, or you get muscle cramps or weakness, etc. In other words, a prolonged overdose is going to upset the overall metabolism of the body.

For me, this would put magnesium in the category of nutrition, rather than medicine. You want it optimized, but it doesn’t have any positive effect on horses that are not suffering from a deficit. This puts it in the same category as protein, vitamins, etc.

This to me is different from oral or injectable mood-altering treatments that are not part of the overall nutritional requirements of the horse, such as tranquilizers or stimulants. In this I would include both pharmaceuticals and herbal formulas that have no place in a horse’s diet except to alter mood. Also painkillers. As far as I know, these rules were first instituted at racetracks, and focused on painkillers and stimulants. Like cocaine. The welfare focus there would be on not running injured horse through their pain.

http://horsefund.org/the-chemical-horse-part-2.php

The problem of calming agents and tranquilizing is more recent, with the rise of horse shows that reward extreme calmness.

Obviously there is going to be a grey area. There always is, in every kind of regulation. The grey areas are the ones that are going to produce court cases and 36 page reports.

The existence of a grey area in any regulatory environment does not invalidate the regulations as a whole. It’s normal, and it can be an interesting area to generate test cases and precedents that push the regulations either towards more laxity or more severity.

For instance, think speeding tickets. You might want to argue that freeway drivers going 5 kpm above posted limits in safe conditions don’t deserve a $200 ticket. But no one is going to say that squealing through a residential neighbourhood at 120 kpm is OK (except the drunk teenage driver).

Or think of the grey areas in between libel and protected speech, between interpersonal conflict and bullying, or even determining if a given event was or was not “date rape.” Or even if something is murder, manslaughter, or an accident. We can all imagine really complicated scenarios where it might be difficult to definitively decide. But that doesn’t mean that the laws against dangerous driving, libel, criminal harassment, sexual assault, and murder are in general vague and unenforceable. It just means that you will always have a very few cases on the borderline, and those are the ones that are in fact interesting in how they put pressure on the regulators to clarify further.

The reason for only banning testable substances is obvious. If you can’t test for a substance, then you can’t prove it was used. It does tie the regulators’ hands to some extent, but I don’t see how else you could proceed.

Interesting to read that tryptophan is banned. I wonder if that means the milk protein Zylkene will also be banned. They are both amino acids, and I assume if you can test for tryptophan, you can test for “the globally patented bioactive decapeptide a-casozepine, derived from milk protein casein” which is a chain of ten amino acids.

Of course, tryptophan is also a required amino acid. So I’m curious as to how it shows up in testing. I assume there is a baseline of normal tryptophan in the body, and an excess would be spotted?

I’ve never given any thought to how you test for performance enhancing substances. I guess pee and blood, same as human athletes.

  	<a href="http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/member.php?136860-aascvt">[B]aascvt[/B]</a> 	 
  	 		 		 		 		[INDENT] 

This horse has an abundance of the following in her life:

  1. Turnout. Out all day in a reasonably sized paddock.

  2. Patience. This horse has been very slowly, carefully developed and NEVER rushed. She loves her job and wants to do it, but is genetically WIRED and has always been that way. I have periodically scoped her JUST to be sure that there is never a physical reason. (That and testing for MANY other problems. No stone has been left unturned).

  3. Feed. She eats high quality hay out of a nibble net 24/7 and eats hardly any grain + forage.

I’m not looking for shortcuts… that’s not my thing. I just have sympathy for my horse and I do everything possible to make her life easier. I’m not trying to make my hot horse a hunter via chemicals. She is a jumper and I love her hotness, but there are times (mostly WINTER which is why I don’t care as much about USEF rule) where she is SO wound that she is constantly working against herself.
[/INDENT]

  1. Turnout out “all day” means 6 hours out, 18 hours standing in a stall at my barn. It might mean 12 hours for your barn. But that’s irrelevant - your horse might be telling you “it’s not enough time” or “it’s not enough space” or “it’s not with a herd I like”

  2. Patience. Again, patient enough for one horse is not patient enough for another. You have to go case by case, and if horse is genetically hot, that’s your horse. You can’t change it except temporarily when you sedate the horse by giving it variously legal/illegal substances.

  3. Feed. Yet again, “hardly any” grain might be “too much” for this horse.

What worked for me: 24/7 turnout. Lots of trail rides. Zero grain. A Buddhist master level of tact in training. Acceptance that my guy was a fireball at times. And daily Mag Restore. If one of those things changes, I had a wacko on my hands.

Turnout means a lot of different things.

I don’t think it is the amount of time in the fresh air. I think it is the amount of time they spend running around and bucking.

In a big pasture and a true herd environment, horses will go for a mad gallop several times a day, and have the comfort of interacting (which for horses can just mean being in proximity).

In most paddocks and dry lots, horses just stand and watch the world go by. They may walk around a little or a lot, and that is very good for their general health and feet, compared to being in a stall. But it doesn’t get the wiggles out of young, hot horses.

I would suggest getting the horse running without a rider every day. I like “attended turnout” or “free longing,” which basically means chasing your horse around the arena, but not every barn has the facilities. As a teen, my solution was to blast at full gallop up dirt roads under saddle. Failing either of those as solutions, a really good workout on the longe line. Maybe do that in the morning and then ride in the afternoon.

And cut out grain altogether for a while.

I am not sure but I believe you can OD a horse on magnesium if you administer it IV. I thought that was the suspected cause of Humble’s demise, wasn’t it?

1 Like

who would do IV mag? absolutely you can OD. People can take too much too.

1 Like

Who the heck is even talking about giving IV magnesium. The problem with it is if you give it too fast they will drop dead. No one in their right mind is going to give that to their horse.

I believe the amount you would have to give orally as a supplement to OD would be astronomical. You will not OD your horse using an OTC supplement such as Quiessence.

Putting aside all the ethics, cheating questions. I do not think a supplement is the best solution to this problem. If you need to drug your horse, do it with a drug that has proven efficacy and safety.

1 Like

[QUOTE=inca;9042787]
Who the heck is even talking about giving IV magnesium. The problem with it is if you give it too fast they will drop dead. No one in their right mind is going to give that to their horse. [/QUOTE]

People did (do) and yes horses did (and do). Yes, some people want to win so much that they’ll take that risk.

The trainer around here thinks everything that Breathes should be on depo.

Well, I just wanted to mention that IV magnesium can be deadly because if we go around saying “magnesium is safe!” some idiot is going to think that applies to any form and then…well, it has happened before. Some people will give horses anything to win.

vxf111 - I do realize it did/does happen but no one on THIS THREAD is talking about IV magnesium. No ammie owner is just going to decide the best solution to their problem is doing daily IV magnesium. That is the point I was making. IV magnesium is so far from what the OP was inquiring about that it is a ridiculous hyperbole.

I’m of a little bit of 2 minds on depo, personally. I may be influenced by the fact that I have been on it myself for years.

It really is not “calming.” There’s nothing in it that should have a calming effect. It is progestin, which is a hormone. A hormone doesn’t have a calming effect. If, however, you have an IMBALANCE in your hormones, getting the hormones in balance can CERTAINLY make you feel better. But not in a “calming” way.

I think 99% of the people who are using it on geldings are making it to make themselves feel better. But it’s not unimaginable to me that some horses have hormones that are a little out of balance. Giving depo to a horse like that just brings the existing situation into balance. I don’t personally see that as “calming.” It’s more like replacing a vitamin/mineral that the horse is deficient in.

I also think horses have been on depo for a long, long time with no noticeable negative side-effects, and so prohibiting something that has caused no horse welfare and isn’t really “calming” doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

But it’s also the USE’s call to prohibit whatever substances it deems inappropriate. I don’t have a gelding on depo so I have no skin in the game on the issue of it’s use in horses, but I also don’t think it’s a calming substance.

[QUOTE=RugBug;9041640]
At your service Mac123. I was asking specifically about Perfect Prep. I initially asked if Perfect Prep was legal and that I wanted to used it to calm my horse before going into the ring. She responded asking me which formula of PP I wanted to use and for a complete list of ingredients. I responded with formula and list of ingredients and got the answer below (copied verbatim from the email. I only edited out my and her names.

This doesn’t address the Shen Calm specifically, but I would wager that the conversation would be the same. If you asked “is this legal?” They would ask for the ingredients and would then determine legality based on whether or not the ingredients are on any banned or controlled lists. If, however, you also state the reason you are using this supplement with these ingredients is to calm your horse, they will indicate as above…ingredients are allowed, but using them for the purpose of calming violates the spirit and intent of the rule.[/QUOTE]

Thank you RugBug, that’s what I had thought.

As far as the line of giving things that are performance enhancing, to me it’s not gray at all. Hock injections, high-quality feed or supplements, gastroguard, laser therapies, massage - that’s all addressing physical needs of an athlete (although there are rules regarding Shockwave and K-tape).

A horse with a training issue (or personality issue or whatever you want to call it) - say a horse that spooks all the time and won’t focus or a horse that’s hot and won’t relax and giving it a substance to improve it’s focus or quiet it, to me, is entirely different and crosses the line.

It may not contain illegal substances, but it does violate the spirit and intention of the rule (as has been verified by the USEF through RugBug).

The problem is that the right path is always hard. The horse that “needs” Shen Calm may actually need a change in his environment or a change in his training or a change in his job. My husband is from the rodeo/western world and I am constantly impressed at how.dang.broke those horses are - and it’s due to all the hard work they put into them as babies.

But those are hard, undesirable solutions that most people can’t or won’t take. It’s much easier to just give 12 tubes of PP and have a national Derby Champion who lives on the road in a 10x10 box with little to no normal social interaction and no space to just be a horse than to give him a healthier lifestyle and achieve the same competitive goals. It’s easier to give the calming supplement than deal with the fact that the horse may not be a good fit for his job. It’s easier to give the focus supplement than to take time truly desensitizing the horse and understanding where that lack of focus comes from - many times, it’s insecurity.

What is worthwhile is vary rarely easy.

1 Like

[QUOTE=Mac123;9043429]
Thank you RugBug, that’s what I had thought.

As far as the line of giving things that are performance enhancing, to me it’s not gray at all. Hock injections, high-quality feed or supplements, gastroguard, laser therapies, massage - that’s all addressing physical needs of an athlete (although there are rules regarding Shockwave and K-tape). [/QUOTE]

To be clear: The reason Shockwave is prohibited is because it has a temporary pain-deadening effect. So you can group this treatment in the category of NSAIDS. The USEF is in the business of making sure that people don’t mask pain that allows them to show the horse when he is hurt and thereby destroy his body faster.

I don’t know how K-tape works, so I can’t tell you why the USEF would ban it.

Again, none of these questions about why X is legal in some form or dose and why Y is illegal should be too hard to figure out.

NSAIDs are not banned. You can show on bute, banamine OR Equioxx (can’t stack them!) You just have to follow the allowed dosing. I almost always give my horse either bute or Equioxx at shows because he is older and used to LOTS of turnout at home. Giving him the allowed dosage of bute or Equioxx helps him not get stiff at shows. (Now, I do agree that the allowed dosage probably is not going to mask a severe unsoundness issue. Just helps with more minor aches and pains.)

1 Like

[QUOTE=inca;9043637]
NSAIDs are not banned. You can show on bute, banamine OR Equioxx (can’t stack them!) You just have to follow the allowed dosing.[/QUOTE]

Yup.

[QUOTE=mvp;9043568]
To be clear: The reason Shockwave is prohibited is because it has a temporary pain-deadening effect. So you can group this treatment in the category of NSAIDS. The USEF is in the business of making sure that people don’t mask pain that allows them to show the horse when he is hurt and thereby destroy his body faster.

I don’t know how K-tape works, so I can’t tell you why the USEF would ban it.

Again, none of these questions about why X is legal in some form or dose and why Y is illegal should be too hard to figure out.[/QUOTE]

K-Tape is allowed in the barn, but not while the horse is being ridden. I’m not sure why, but I know K-Tape can be pain relieving by holding tissues in a certain way, so I imagine under saddle the K-Tape could either mask a lameness or predispose to further injury.