Can a foal be born chestnut but turn dark bay or something besides liver?? (now pix)

[Dutch_Lovin_Dressage]

Possible or not possible? I always thought once chestnut always chestnut. Not so sure now. I will need to get pix. Coat color coming in does not look liver. More of seal brown. Even tail hair is dark. Suppose genetically chestnut but on outside could look like something else?

Last years foal did go through a liver stage and is now a dark chestnut but not liver. She is sabino. Lots of white. Belly spots. Tail has flaxen or white on sides. New baby does not have this.

Asked the vet. He said no. Color experts?

[siegi_b]

The foal could turn grey given the right parents… but I don’t think he’ll go to bay. Besides, in my experience, the really dark liver chestnut was born looking just about black.

[RedMare01]

Sometimes they can fool you.

http://s737.photobucket.com/albums/xx15/RedMare01/?action=view&current=wildbay.jpg

This colt belonged to a friend of mine, and at birth he was pretty much chestnut. This photo was taken at his inspection, and you can see how his one non-white leg is starting to darken, but that wasn’t really there at birth. I think the correct term is wild bay? Anyway, they knew he was bay because the stallion is homozygous EE, and the rest of his bay coloring came eventually. From photos I’ve seen of him as an adult, his black legs stayed very minimal.

Caitlin

[coloredcowhorse]

Parent colors?

Re: wild bay…my understanding is that there are 4 potential genes at the agouti site…a placeholder type gene that apparently does nothing to black pigment…this one tests “a” and is what you would see in a black, grullo, blue roan horse when in homozygous form. Then there is the BAY form of the agouti gene … effects black pigment so that it is concentrated in the points (mane/tail/lower legs) and “thin” in the remainder of the body (which we perceive as a reddish tone)…this tests as “A”. The third form is the BROWN form which appears to be a subtype of “A” since it will test the same unless the specific test for it is used…it is written as “At” and it makes the distribution of black pigment more even over the body but “thins” it so that we perceive brown. The last suggested (no test that I know of) is WILD BAY…in this the black pigment is limited to just barely at or above the coronet bands on the legs and may be somewhat limited in the mane/tail possibly giving a more “brown” look to them than the usual black.

The foal hair on the legs in almost all foals (there are some exceptions) is silvery/beigey/tannish and doesn’t reflect the color of the legs at maturity. It doesn’t usually take long for black to show on bay foals as they rub off foal hair on fetlocks and knees and the hair just above the coronet band is usually dark as well. I’ve also seen a very few bay foals arrive with reddish staining of the mane and tail hair although the roots quickly grew in black. Another clue is that the eyelashes on chestnuts tend to be reddish while those on bays are black…also the case with whiskers.

[JB]

Yes, once chestnut, always chestnut. Once any color, always that color (gray excepting, it’s a coverup).

Liver chestnut can look very brown, very dark. Most chestnut foals shed quite dark the first time. Most of those end up some normal shade of chestnut, few end up liver.

Pictures would help though

[Dutch_Lovin_Dressage]

Just added pix. So looks like some sort of liver.

Siegi thats interesting that your liver was born almost black! I have a liver born similar color to this filly. Remained liver. Never changed color again.

[RunningwaterWBs]

My filly looks chestnut but has what looks like black hairs in her tail.

Here she is on her second day:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee40/RunningwaterWBs/IMG_2420.jpg

Dam is grey, sire is chestnut. Any guesses?

[RunningwaterWBs]

DLDR, I was posting at the same time you were adding pictures. Very interesting color on that filly! I’ll be watching to see what the experts say.

[Dutch_Lovin_Dressage]

haniska your filly is really unusual! Very cool. There is some sort of a bay that has brown points instead of black. Cant wait to hear what experts say about yours!

See my new post on the disappearing facial markings on my same filly posted above.

[RunningwaterWBs]

Thanks. My guess is mine will be grey, but this is the first time I’ve had a foal with grey in the equation and I know the mare is heterozygous grey.

My filly is also Dutch. Bloodlines are Sir Gregory/ Anriejetto/ Corvado.

What are the bloodlines on yours? What do you know about their colors?

[Equilibrium]

My color knowledge is limited but sometimes they look odd until the " tone" catches up with the shedding. Pretty sure you have a chestnut but what shade is anyone’s guess. When my wildly rabicano TB filly stated shedding she looked brown with grey more leaning towards grey. Since she had no grey parents it was impossible. I called DNA lab to make sure! At any rate once her tone started catching up she became her normal bright bay with all the white flecks.

Again very limited on color knowledge.

Terri

[Tasker]

OP take it with a grain of salt but IME your filly will be chestnut next spring. When ours have shed out that brownish chestnut their mature coats are very ‘red’ chestnut, not liver, not pale orange FWIW. I used to get all excited about having so many liver chestnuts and it’s a standard ‘shrug, write chestnut’ on their registration applications and continue on with the day.

haniska - I’d be willing to wager your baby is going to grey out.
But both are very cute!

But that being said chestnuts can really change their ‘shade’ of coloring in their lifetime…
L-R
9 days (in 2006)
august of yearling year
october (may DOB)
May 2011
June 2011

I can throw up more photos of the other chestnuts at varying ages/stages, if you want.

[JB]

Dutch - very classic chestnut foal shed :).

Hansiska - very classic chestnut who will be gray :).

[RunningwaterWBs]

Ahh, good! I suspected as much. Thank-you for the definitive answer.

[tuckawayfarm]

There is some sort of a bay that has brown points instead of black.

Do you know anything about this? I have a bay who has brown (like liver) points and lots of red in her mane and tail. The registry even wanted me to list her as chestnut, but I wasn’t sure so I had her tested and she is definitely bay. Just curious about what causes this and if she is likely to pass it on. Her sire and dam are both light bay.

TIA

[JB]

Need a picture. Brown can very much look like “bay” with brown points.

Some shades of chestnut can have some darker points that can look brown

While not common, silver bay can be just a dilution/muting of the points to a brown-ish hue.

[rideagoldenpony]

[QUOTE=JB;5686712]
Yes, once chestnut, always chestnut. [/QUOTE]

I have a friend who imported a Welsh Cob colt from Wales. He sent me pictures of the foal, which included this one http://www.larkenfarm.com/Larken_Farm/Leo_files/03.jpg and told me that the breeder told him the colt would be black. I laughed. That sounded ridiculous to me. What kind of chestnut turns BLACK?

Well, this kind:
http://www.larkenfarm.com/Larken_Farm/Leo_files/leo3.jpg
http://www.larkenfarm.com/Larken_Farm/Leo_files/LeoDrive.jpg

We had him in for training over the winter, and yes, he is well and truly black.

[whbar158]

[QUOTE=rideagoldenpony;5687514]
I have a friend who imported a Welsh Cob colt from Wales. He sent me pictures of the foal, which included this one http://www.larkenfarm.com/Larken_Farm/Leo_files/03.jpg and told me that the breeder told him the colt would be black. I laughed. That sounded ridiculous to me. What kind of chestnut turns BLACK?

Well, this kind:
http://www.larkenfarm.com/Larken_Farm/Leo_files/leo3.jpg
http://www.larkenfarm.com/Larken_Farm/Leo_files/LeoDrive.jpg

We had him in for training over the winter, and yes, he is well and truly black.[/QUOTE]

The first picture doesn’t say chestnut to me at all, not sure what color, but it doesn’t have any red undertone to it.

[rideagoldenpony]

[QUOTE=whbar158;5687567]
The first picture doesn’t say chestnut to me at all, not sure what color, but it doesn’t have any red undertone to it.[/QUOTE]

I don’t have the earlier photos of him anymore, but the pictures I saw when he was younger (than the photo I posted above) most definitely looked like a chestnut foal.

Though I do think that foal photo looks like a chestnut foal shedding out to be livery looking. I certainly would have NEVER guessed black from that.

[JB]

I agree it’s questionable whether the foal was chesnut. Any pictures of him much younger, before the foal coat faded? He could easily be black or smoky black, even very dark seal brown, and his coat after drying and until a few weeks old would present a much better picture.