I don’t even know what I should want to know about it, so I’d really appreciate guidance:
Sire is Weltbekannt by Weltmeyer
Dam is by Wertherson out of a Guarantor mare.
Does having three “W” names out of four mean anything in particular when it comes to linebreeding or something?
Thanks!
Wertherson is from Werther - not the same line as Weltbekannt and his sire Weltmeyer. Werther is considered an F-line stallion.
So, not line breeding. Nice to have the Gaurantor blood there.
You will have lots of breeding choices from S, F, B, A and d line (etc) sires.
Weltbekannt showed through GP dressage w/ Fred Webber with good scores. His Performance test scores (Munster-Handorf 1995) Rideability 97.95, Jumping: 91.73 Overall 95.85 He is a Weltmeyer son, so more of a tendency to produce dressage horses. I have heard his offspring have excellent, cooperative temperaments and are nice AA dressage horses.
Wertherson showed FEI (not sure if just PSG or higher) again w/ Fred Webber in the '90s. Performance Test scores 1986 Adelheidsdorf - Rideability 107.81, Jumping 96.85 Overall 106.38 He is a son of Werther, so a more multi-discipline producer of dressage & jumping talent from his sire.
That info comes from the AHS 1996 Yearbook. I don’t have the other years books here at my house to look up Guarantor (sorry).
FWIW I worked with a Wertherson/G line mare back in college for a student - very refined, hunter type but very, very spooky (visual, noise, any stimulus really) and reactive. Very pretty though with gorgeous head! Long, low set neck and lacking uphill quality to all her gaits. Jumping was so-so…not much scope or power w/ dodgy form but she was very sweet on the ground.
The G line (in general) can be slow to reach full mature appearance (height & physique), a tad stubborn/set in their ways/determined (all in the way you see it) and have good talent over fences w/ decent gaits. But that is a painting with a very broad brush…
Weltbekannt is out of a Werther granddaughter, so going to the pedigree of this particular horse - it is line bred to Werther and Abglanz. I think also Goldfish II but that is pretty far back.
Hope that helps somewhat.
Tasker did a good job of outlining the performance careers of Weltbekannt (Weltmeyer son) and Wertherson (Werther son).
Pwynnnorman - The W’s in the Weltmeyer and Wertherson lines are much different, in fact the Wertherson line was changed to being an F-line some time ago, but I do not understand the detail of why that change was made. Suzanne Quarles of Someday Soon Farm stood both Wertherson (now deceased) and Weltbekannt.
If you are specifically asking about a horse that is Weltbekannt x Wertherson, then there is a repeat of Werther in that cross. Weltbekannt’s grand dam sire and Wertherson’s sire is Werther. I personally own a Weltbekannt x Wertherson Elite Hanoverian foundation broodmare. Her personal characteristics are mild temperament, excellent conformation, 3 very good gaits and very trainable / willing. She has produced several exceptional youngsters that have versatility for both dressage and hunters. Beautiful type on all of them. 3 Elite daughters (thus far). Here is a link to our Weltbekannt x Wertherson if you would like to view photos or pedigree.
http://highvalleyhanoverians.net/mares/Wruffian.htm
I have bred four Weltbekannt offspring from my Rubinstein I mare. All were very good to ride, very smart and retained their training well. I still have one and she is a very treasured broodie who recently went back under saddle after having 5 foals. I met Weltbekannt when he was first imported and was very impressed with his character and watched Fred Weber train him and campaign him up the levels for Suzanne Quarles.
The first Hanoverian mare I ever bought was a Wertherson/ Grundstein I mare bred by Suzanne Quarles. I met Wertherson on that trip. He had recently been retired, but was a gorgeous, kind stallion with enormous presence. He campaigned through Intermediare I very successfully and also did it barefoot. My Wertherson mare is now turning 20 and is still going strong as a broodie. She is a small mare but has consistently produced tall offspring. She was a bit on the silly side, but all her kids have had the best minds. She has consistently outproduced herself.
I have known quite a few horses that were Weltbekannt/ Wertherson crosses. Quite a few were ammy friendly. As has been pointed out the two lines are separate and the only linebreeding is from the Werther connection through Weltbekannt’s damline.
Thank you, everyone. Several of you have indicated exactly the traits this mare has (for example, she is indeed very amateur-friendly – and an awesome mover and a beauty, too).
And I was totally ignorant about the "W"s! Sounds like that could be a significant hole in my understanding of Hannoverians. I won’t forget it.
Whoever said that only Werther descends from the F line is quite wrong. Both Werther and Weltmeyer ARE from the same family and same foundational stallion - which is FLING.
Werther is technically still the F line. Wendekreis, for whatever reason, was given a W name, but he SHOULD have been given an F name. And if Werther was being used today, his offspring should technically be going back to F names.
All W’s started from the F line. The line was separated into the F and W lines according to the two Fling sons Feiner Kerl and Flavius: as of 1989, all stallions licensed in that year and going back to Feiner Kerl belong to the F-line; all going back to Flavius form the W-line.
Going backwards - it goes Weltmeyer - World Cup I - Woermann - Wohler - Flügeladjutant - Flugelmann I - Flavius - Fling.
Where Weltmeyer’s tree branches off is the A-line mare bred directly to produce Flavius. Flavius in turn was also bred to A-line to produce Flugelmann I. And HE was bred to the A-line mare Alexine to produce Flügeladjutant. From there the topline deviates a bit introducing more F, some Senator blood and Lugano I blood to produce the SPS Mare Sendernixe. This great mare produced World Cup I. From there they went back to the A line pairing Anka with World Cup I to produce the great Weltmeyer.
Going backwards for Werther - Wendekreis - Ferdinand - Ferrara - Feinschnitt - Feiner Kerl - Fling. Actually, Wendekreis is technically a double Feiner Kerl, which means he technically carries both Fling twice, and King 6 times. The mareline of Werther is an A and D line mareline descending from Detektiv and Alderman, as well as the Shagya Arab stallion, Amateur I. His granddaughter was paired with the TB Stallion, Marcio which produced Werther’s dam, the SPS mare, Meisterkrone.
Fling produced quite a bit, considering it was long before the days of AI, so everything was live cover and mares were fairly close by - some of his better stallion sons are, of course, Feiner Kerl, but also Fleiger, Flintstein I, II, and III, Flavius, Flugfeur.
The lovely thing about Wertherson being the son of Werther, being an F-line stallion, this family tree is famous for its versatility, depending on the MARE you put to the horse. Ferdinand was the most famous for producing Jumpers - he was so famous for his courage, confidence, and jumping ability, all of which he was extremely consistent for passing on to his kids. His most influential son, Wendekreis, should have been a jumper and indeed he, himself, was… however, he produced both dressage and jumping kids, both equally talented and successful in both GP arenas. When the 1/2 TB mare, Meisterkrone was paired up to produce Werther, Werther himself had a very strong dressage bloodline from his mother through her TB father’s influence. Werther had a very powerful jumping bloodline on the top. What made Werther so spectacularly popular was his propensity for either DRESSAGE or JUMPING strongly depended on the MARE to whom he was paired with.
So, OP, your mare (is it a mare?) descends from a very powerful DRESSAGE lineage, paired to a mareline who had the abilities of both because of the nature of her personal sireline, Werther.
Where it gets even a little more interesting is to analyze Weltmeyer’s father, who is World Cup I - he was a show jumper and tended to produce show jumpers. Then this little mare called Anka who descended from the dressage Trakhener stallion Absatz was paired up with him and produced the phenom known the world over as Weltmeyer.
Your horse has a pedigree that could take him anywhere. If it’s a mare (you didn’t say), and she was of good breeding quality - you could pair her with any of the dressage lines following the W, A and D lines, or go back into jumper territory with F and E - epecifically Eiger I descendants. The A line was also split to incorporate an E-line, with two main groups. One group goes back to the stallion Eindruck II. whose best known son is Einblick in his time a performance test winner and very good in dressage and jumping. Einblick was used at stud since 1973. This group is considered mainly to be dressage horses, although Einblick, himself, was also very good in jumping.
The second E-line goes back to the stallion Eisenherz used in breeding since 1972. This group has a bigger influence on the breed than the Eindruck group. The best son of Eisenherz is Eiger 1 who is a very good type and very prepotent. His offspring have both dressage and jumping abilities, and his best son, I believe, is the stallion Espri, used since 1985. Espri’s kids are very convincing, especially his sons Escudo I and Escudo II, among many others. Escudo II convincingly produces both dressage and show jumping horses, depending on the MARE he is put to. Espri, even further to make it more interesting, descends directly from the great Dressage stallion State Premium-Mare Maker, Diplomat. This is why you might breed your mare to an E jumper stallion who descends via Espri and Diplomat and still end up with a rather impressive dressage horse or a horse that is highly versatile and could easily do either/or quite wonderfully and with high regard.
Your horse has rather the VERY interesting and colorful pedigree. Lots could go from there.
G-line has been split into 2 categories - G-line for jumping and G-line for dressage. Guarantor, himself, descends from the Dressage lineage, because his mareline is A… via Absatz.
Interesting little factoid about Grande (Guarantor’s grandsire) - - he had the highest number of grandkids participating in the 1996, 2000 and 2004 Olympics and the highest medalling horses in both Show Jumping AND Dressage of any other breeding stallion in the world. Grande’s lineage is one of the most successful lineages in the world.
Therefore, putting Grande together with Werther and Weltmeyer pretty much makes for potential world domination. If you’re so inclined!
A particularly interesting outcross could take you into the C-line for jumping as it would tie into the Cardinal also found in your horse’s pedigree. Like I said, an extremely interesting pedigree.
Rodawn - too much! I love your detailed and impassioned explanation. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and enthusiasm.
DITTO!!
I saw that this thread included Werther and that some people who really know their Hanno stuff are posting, so I hope the OP doesnt mind if I tack on a pedigree question. 
My best friend (who is planning on moving her horse to my new barn once it is finished…so I have a vested interest) is looking at a Hano broodmare to purchase and keeps asking me about the bloodlines. I am 100% Holsteiner, so I have nooooo clue. Anyway, she wants a mare that she can do lower level hunter as well as one that is good enough to breed next year to get her “dream foal.”
This is the horse she is interested in:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/feuerrot2
Any thoughts?
Thanks so much!
It’s a good pedigree. I like that the breeder brought her name back to the F which is her true lineage.
Shogun was an approved TB stallion, type for jumping. Hanover incorporates the use of Trakehner, French Anglo-Arab, Shagya Arab and the Thoroughbred to achieve type, durability, mental qualities and some refinement. Specifically, the FRENCH Anglo-Arab because it is practically a breed unto itself based on upon it’s consistency of type, size, conformation, and quality of gaits. The same goes for the Shagya Arab since they have a conformational requirement very similar to the standards of the warmblood and indeed the mares and stallions in the Shagya are tested to standards similar to the warmblood.
In this particular pedigree there is the Shagya descent from Werther and a lot of Trakehner and Thoroughbred.
Gelria was a pure Trakehner and a grandson of Abglanz. He produced very good types and sired another pure Trakehner stallion, Steuben, who was also used in the Hanoverian breed. However, the Gelria line was also unable to establish itself as a stallion line, which is really unfortunate, actually, as he was a really really good stallion, and this is a very good example of an under-utilized stallion. He tended to produce more jumping horses than dressage horses, which is interesting since he descended from a most decidedly dressage granddaddy - Abglanz.
This particular pedigree has good jumping on the mareline and the sireline is capable of both, therefore, the mare in question would have to be looked at conformationally and movement to determine which direction she is suited for. She could still produce either/or depending on how strong the stallion she is paired with. For example, if you went with a C-line Hanoverian stallion, which descends from Holstein, you will probably end up with a show jumper. A strong D/A line stallion will probably land you a really nice dressage horse.
FWIW, every good dressage horse requires some judicious use of the right type of jumper blood. It improves the dressage - by improving the freedom through the shoulder and the correct placement of the hindquarters underneath the horse, ie. the POWER. You don’t want a horse’s hindquarters placed out behind itself, beyond it’s tail, neither for jumping nor for the dressage.
[QUOTE=rodawn;6179246]
It’s a good pedigree. I like that the breeder brought her name back to the F which is her true lineage.
Shogun was an approved TB stallion, type for jumping. Hanover incorporates the use of Trakehner, French Anglo-Arab, Shagya Arab and the Thoroughbred to achieve type, durability, mental qualities and some refinement. Specifically, the FRENCH Anglo-Arab because it is practically a breed unto itself based on upon it’s consistency of type, size, conformation, and quality of gaits. The same goes for the Shagya Arab since they have a conformational requirement very similar to the standards of the warmblood and indeed the mares and stallions in the Shagya are tested to standards similar to the warmblood.
In this particular pedigree there is the Shagya descent from Werther and a lot of Trakehner and Thoroughbred.
Gelria was a pure Trakehner and a grandson of Abglanz. He produced very good types and sired another pure Trakehner stallion, Steuben, who was also used in the Hanoverian breed. However, the Gelria line was also unable to establish itself as a stallion line, which is really unfortunate, actually, as he was a really really good stallion, and this is a very good example of an under-utilized stallion. He tended to produce more jumping horses than dressage horses, which is interesting since he descended from a most decidedly dressage granddaddy - Abglanz.
This particular pedigree has good jumping on the mareline and the sireline is capable of both, therefore, the mare in question would have to be looked at conformationally and movement to determine which direction she is suited for. She could still produce either/or depending on how strong the stallion she is paired with. For example, if you went with a C-line Hanoverian stallion, which descends from Holstein, you will probably end up with a show jumper. A strong D/A line stallion will probably land you a really nice dressage horse.
FWIW, every good dressage horse requires some judicious use of the right type of jumper blood. It improves the dressage - by improving the freedom through the shoulder and the correct placement of the hindquarters underneath the horse, ie. the POWER. You don’t want a horse’s hindquarters placed out behind itself, beyond it’s tail, neither for jumping nor for the dressage.[/QUOTE]
Thanks so much rodawn for sharing your knowledge! I will certainly pass this along to her as well. Hopefully she will end up purchasing this mare and I will get to be a part of picking out the stallion for next years breeding. It is good to hear that this mare, at least on paper, could produce jump which is what she/we are looking for. Hearing about the Trakehner in this pedigree was especially informative because I have been unable to find much information about Gelria’s line prior to your post, so thanks again!
We have a Wertherson mare who helped me raise my daughter.
I am thoroughly enjoying reading all this.
Carry on
Another website to spend some time on doing pedigree research is The Horse Magazine in Australia. The section on Great Stallions will cover quite a few of the names that have been brought up here.
And as an aside Abglanz did produce some successful show jumping offspring & sires - he was not just a dressage maker. Abhang III was the most successful SJ producing of the 3 full brothers (Abhang I-III) and Argentan and Argentinus were certainly dual purpose producers.
Pwynn - you also had the stallion Waidmannsdank xx in the pedigree of Wertherson. He was a successful TB stallion used in Hanover & Oldenburg and appears in Wummerstern (Han), Parabol (Westphalian) and Waldaire (Han) pedigree as well as being the damsire for Akzent I & II. He was by Neckar.
Another resource to consider is The Making of the Modern Warmblood. Dressage Daily distributes for them here in the US and it is well worth the $$ to acquire the book.
There is a section (and I might be remembering incorrectly) on the old W/F line (Werther, Watzmann) and it is mentioned that there were wind problems. It shocked the author that a well known registry would license(and actively promote) a stallion with broken wind (roaring and the like). If I’m remembering correctly, he goes on to say that over a course of a few years, those bloodlines were essentially culled out of the mainstream production…My copy is at the other house, so I can’t look it up to cite the page reference. Does anyone have it handy? And if I’m wrong on the names/bloodlines, please correct me!
And if you read German - there is a similar book detailing the making of the “old” warmblood horse in Hanover by Werner Schockemohle (Paul’s brother). It is no longer in print, so you have to haunt rare/used book sites. The title is Die Grossen Hengst Hannover and Gotthard is on the cover/dust jacket and I think it covers from the WWI era-the mid 1970’s. Tons of photos, famous sires & dams. Lots of info. It is one of our most treasured reference books for breeding.
Wind problems? Hmmm. Now, this mare does have some problems, but they aren’t wind-related. And, to be honest, I’ve heard privately from a few that there may be some issues hanging around, in a general way, but it’s tough to determine how representative anecdotal evidence is – or where the issues come from in a pedigree…Isn’t it? (I’m asking, not assuming.)
You know some of our pedigree experts are dredging up not only ancient history, but ancient, ancient history. I would look at the horse in front of you. FWIW.
Wow! Sorry I said anything negative (or what could be construed as negative) about an old Hanoverian bloodline. I will find the section in the book tomorrow, so that I can cite page # and the exact quote from Mr. Hector. It jumped out at me at the time as it was a shocker (to me) to see such a comment. My apologies for sharing before having the reference info.
Pwynn - like HAF said - look at the horse in front of you. If it looks like it can do the job/has done the job with some success…it is a decent animal just like any other. And should be evaluated on it’s own merits for breeding.
As a breeder who rides, I feel it is my responsibility to dig under every rock and stump in the forest of ancestors to find out the good, bad and the ugly before breeding because if the foal doesn’t sell - I have to ride it. Others might not want to look so closely and that is their right. Free world. Live and let live and all that jazz.
Tasker, my apologies. I did not mean that the way it may have come out. All info is good. I am tired tonight and a bit discouraged. I truly did not mean that the way it may have come across.
I owned a Werther grandson who had no breathing difficulties whatsoever who we competed simultaneously in both show jumping and upper level dressage. Regazzoni is also a Werther grandson with no difficulties, nor does the Regazzoni daughter which I bred who is now competing. Another Regazzoni daughter I took in for board and training was also fine with her airways. So, it truly is something you look at the individual horse for.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
