Can someone help give me advice in the Andalusian community?

[trakappy]

I have been riding horses for two decades and owned them for a little over one; I am just now looking at buying my first Andalusian. There is one in mind that I like, but I want some tips on the value of these horses. I understand they are pricey, and, though i don;t mind spending the money for the right horse, I certainly don’t want to be taken advantage of.

My questions are:

1. Are their any particularly prominant bloodlines or breeders in the US to be knowledgeable about, good, bad or otherwise?

2. The horse I’m looking at is a 7 year old mare registered with IALHA but is not PRE. She was broke out in the walk and trot (not canter) once a while back and was mostly was a brood mare. I don’t want to share a photo or her pedigree because thats not fair to the current owner. Any idea of a value RANGE for something like this?

3. Any other tips or things I should know about before embarking on this journey with Iberian horses?

[Snowflake]

Just out of curiosity, is this mare located in the Northeast?

[trakappy]

No…more of the Midwest (but kind of the northeast part of the midwest). I don’t even want to give away the state; again its out of respect for the owners, I have no desire to offend anyone I just want to educate myself.

[WorkingDrive]

You might consider contacting an IALHA representative in your region for more in-depth information. Friends of ours breed and train Lusitanos, and yes, there are definitely varied bloodlines (as there are in any breed.) Some are hotter. Some aren’t. They produce certain types. Although versatile, some have been specifically bred to have an edge in certain areas (bullfighting, etc.). It might be best to find a mentor who can assist you with exactly what you’re looking for.

No one can price what that mare should be valued at without knowing in-depth information : soundness, temperament, bloodlines? why was she only trained for walk-trot and then turned out as a broodmare? what are her foals doing now? where are they? The price range can be anything from $3000-$30,000 without in-depth information.

[Snowflake]

Ok. My friend just bought an Andy/Lipp gelding in the north east and the seller also had a mare for sale that meets the description you posted. The gelding was very much misrepresented so I was just going to say “buyer beware” if it’s the same seller.

[CrotchetyDQ]

Having bought my first (and so far, only) Spanish horse a few years ago from a breeder, I would follow your gut on value. I came from the warmblood world, and felt the prices were of a similar range for similar quality. Unique factors that make a Spanish horse more valuable include colors other than gray, and ANCEE (PRE) papers. IALHA does not have required inspections like ANCEE does for breeding stock. Many US breeders follow the Spanish tradition that mares do not get ridden, and are always broodmares, so I would not put too much stock on the fact she has not done much under saddle. But that is obviously a price factor!

[arlosmine]

What sort of riding do you want to do with this horse? If dressage, I have found that the prices on Iberian horses seem to have little to do with gait quality until you are looking at horses who have already been identified as having “real” dressage gaits, and/or training, and then the price goes way up.
You can find Iberians with quality gaits who haven’t been “discovered”, at a lower price point, but you have to be ready to beat bushes.
Things like hair and color, rather than performance, can be determiners of price…which I find to be very weird.

[trakappy]

I’m looking to do recreational dressage and jumping. This horse is dapple grey. She is also not too big; i have not measured her but she for sure is not 16 hh, probably closer to 15 hh

[Abbie.S]

I love Iberian horses. But like any breed, it’s hard to generalize because each horse is unique.

I’m not as familiar with bloodlines in America, moreso in Spain/Europe. But I’d Google the IALHA and do some research.

You will find, similarly to Gypsy Vanners, Friesians, etc., than color and hair do sometimes drive up prices. Many an Iberian horse are born bay or black and grey out. Prices are generally higher for horses that do not. Many ads will say the horse has been genetically tested for color and will not grey with age if that is the case.

Consider the horse first. Unless this mare has absolutely fabulous bloodlines and has a number of offspring in show arenas doing very well, a green-broke 7yo shouldn’t command a terribly high purchase price.

As a word of caution, given she is only 7 and appears, from your OP, to have already had some foals, I would be very thorough with a PPE, especially checking out her pelvis and back. I’ve seen too many mares that were bred multiple before the age of 6, which is when the last growth plates close (and happen to be those in the spine, no less), who then went on to be sold as riding horses and presented with a lot of back and hip problems. A foal at 6 or 7yo is one thing, but babies starting at 3yo? I’d pass.

[CrotchetyDQ]

Just an FYI, my fancy dressage PRE mare can’t jump her way out of a wet paper bag. Some of them can jump, but mine sure can’t.

[TequilaMockingbird]

Without seeing the specific horse it’s hard to say obviously. I’d be curious to see her if you don’t mind PMing me.

Research the sire’s show history. Watch videos if you can find them. I think IAHLA show titles are worth diddly squat. I would be more interested in USDF / FEI scores if you’re looking for a dressage horse.

Try to find other offspring from the sire and their show records as well.

Join the Andalusian/Lusitano Marketplace on Facebook and look through the ads. The ones with prices will probably help you figure out what is reasonable for the horse you’re looking at. They will nearly always specify if they’re ANCEE (PRE) or Andalusian (IAHLA).

[Cindyg]

I will say this about the fact that she’s registered with the IAHLA but not PRE:

Years ago, when the Andalusian horse was new to this country, the Andalusian association was pressured by the Lusitano people to include Lusitanos in their breed association because, at the time, there were not nearly enough Lusitanos to sustain their own association in this country.

Even at the time, it there was a huge controversy about this, but it was done.

So the IAHLA registers horses that are Spanish (Andalusians) AND Portugues (Lusitanos) AND horses that are Andalusian and Lusitanos crossed. It is technically appropriate to call any horse registered with the IAHLA an Andalusian, even if it has Portuguese blood.

Some argue that Andalusians and Lusitanos are genetically the same horse (just a political difference between Portugal and Spain).

Others find that highly offensive, because THEIR horse, whichever one it is, is the very BEST and should not be crossed with the OTHER.

Those who have horses registered in the IAHLA with both Portuguese and Spanish blood find THAT highly offensive because it implies that their horses are somehow impure or crossbred.

The Lusitano people are particularly offended that their horses are in the IAHLA and loosely called “Andalusians,” (as all horses registered by the IAHLA can properly be called), because they are not Andalusians (Spanish), but Lusitanos (Portuguese).

So. Some Spanish-only breeders got sick of all that and pulled out of the association and started their own group, PRE, which stands for Pure Razo Espaniol, or pureblooded Spanish.

So the mare you are looking at may be pure Spanish, may be pure Portuguese, or maybe a cross between Spanish and Portuguese breeding, all of which are happily accepted by the IAHLA.

And if any of my IAHLA friends read this and take great offense at how I’ve documented it . . . well, that is why I left the association and bought a noncontroversial fat, yellow Fjord.

[arlosmine]

Thanks, cindyg!
That was a helpful explanation for a question I had. A student of mine recently bought one of those “beat the bushes” horses I mentioned above : A very talented mare who was at a breeder’s, who was priced the same as the other horses for sale, though she is much the better mover.

She is a SP, which I had never heard of, but I now understand is a Lusitano X Andalusian cross. From our standpoint, her worth is in Performance. I wonder though, if the SP horses are considered less valuable because they are “a cross”? She is registered with the IAHLA. I’m used to the warmblood registries, which are type based and often accept a wide range of other warmbloods into each other’s registries without qualm.

[Ambitious_Kate]

You can contact my trainer to get some information. She imports these horses from spain and portugal, plus S. America, and she visits all parts of this country and bringshorses from say CAlif. or other parts of the country for her students and clients. She is kind and thoughtful, and can give you some good advice, if you care to contact her, and she would never assume you wanted to contract with her for that advice, if you only were trying to feel out the community and the prices in regions. She can also talk to you very clearly about PRE and non- and what the different kinds of horses and their registrations mean, pricewise and breeding wise. Her website is http://www.patricianorciadressage.com/ and in it you can find a way to contact her. She has many contacts in the US andalusion community, also, and can refer you to other folks, as well. Good luck

[CrotchetyDQ]

Cindyg, I have to mention your post is 99.9% accurate, with the notable exception of the fact that horses registered as PRE in this country are all associated with USPREA, which is the ancillary office of ANCEE in Spain. All paperwork and requests thru USPREA are ultimately processed thru the Spanish office, thusly making PRE the ‘elite’ registry. In my experience, ANCEE is a bit of a PITA to deal with, and they do very much look down on the upstart American registries in large part because of the reasons you stated.

There are several American based registries, with IALHA being the largest, most established, and (I have heard) the best managed. My experience with IALHA was pretty easy and seamless. My ongoing experience with ANCEE is less so.

Andalusian World has a pretty comprehensive list of registries and clubs.

http://www.andalusianworld.com/organizations.html

[Guilherme]

I met an elderly Spanish gentleman several years ago who was admiring our Marchador stallion. He was a very active trainer and rider in the 1940s and '50s. He commented how our horse closely resembled the horses of that time.

He also told me that until 1954 the Adalusian and Lusitano horses in Iberia were in the same stud book. They separated in that year for “political” purposes. Would this be true? I’m not an Andy owner but our horses share a lot of the same foundation blood. This would be of historical interest for me.

G.

[Megaladon]

[QUOTE=trakappy;8166475]
I have been riding horses for two decades and owned them for a little over one; I am just now looking at buying my first Andalusian. There is one in mind that I like, but I want some tips on the value of these horses. I understand they are pricey, and, though i don;t mind spending the money for the right horse, I certainly don’t want to be taken advantage of.

My questions are:

1. Are their any particularly prominant bloodlines or breeders in the US to be knowledgeable about, good, bad or otherwise?

2. The horse I’m looking at is a 7 year old mare registered with IALHA but is not PRE. She was broke out in the walk and trot (not canter) once a while back and was mostly was a brood mare. I don’t want to share a photo or her pedigree because thats not fair to the current owner. Any idea of a value RANGE for something like this?

3. Any other tips or things I should know about before embarking on this journey with Iberian horses?[/QUOTE]

For me, I prefer Cartujano bloodlines in the Andalusians. So these are horses that are on the smaller side 15h-16h, grey, perhaps fleabitten, fantastic movement and are considered extremely pure and are very gentle, even the stallions. These bloodlines are my personal preference. Finding these bloodlines is becoming more and more of a challenge, and their prices usually reflect that.

Andalusians are smart, her previous training should return to her without much fuss I would think, based on my experiences with the breed. That said, all horses are different. Her value to me would also be based on her bloodlines (as in, would these be a mare I would want to breed as well?). I have known several PRE horses, both imported and domestic and all seemed to be requiring a bit more of a professional hand. So PRE registration is not a make or break deal for me.

Good luck to you and I hope you enjoy your endeavor.

[Cindyg]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;8167937]

She is a SP, which I had never heard of, but I now understand is a Lusitano X Andalusian cross. From our standpoint, her worth is in Performance. I wonder though, if the SP horses are considered less valuable because they are “a cross”? She is registered with the IAHLA. I’m used to the warmblood registries, which are type based and often accept a wide range of other warmbloods into each other’s registries without qualm.[/QUOTE]

I forgot to mention SP! Which, as you deduced, means “Spanish Portuguese”! Yes!

Is she less valuable because of that? Totally depends on who you ask. It goes back to whether or not you believe that Andalusians and Lusitanos are genetically the same horse – which is a very hot topic in the IAHLA. Or it was when I left. For all I know, they may have all killed each other off by now.

Some are offended by the “SP” label, which implies a cross, which implies less value; when, indeed, she may be very carefully and purposefully bred. And, according to the bylaws of the IAHLA, she is a purebred “Andalusian” in their association, which accepts both bloodlines.

But if you are a PRE purist or a Lusitano purist (for the sake of breeding), then, alas, she is a crossbreed and less desirable.

[Cindyg]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8168133]

He also told me that until 1954 the Adalusian and Lusitano horses in Iberia were in the same stud book. They separated in that year for “political” purposes. Would this be true?[/QUOTE]

See, that is what is claimed by IAHLA members who believe the two are genetically identical horses. But not all agree. Fierce battles raged over that. Constantly.

Seems like a simple genetic study (and some time studying historical records) could settle it.

I laughed when I read CrochetyDQ post, “IALHA being the largest, most established, and (I have heard) the best managed. My experience with IALHA was pretty easy and seamless.” LOL. A lot of people could not say that.

[CrotchetyDQ]

Well, in my experience, it is true. Granted, the breeder did the ‘heavy lifting’ on the paperwork, and all I had to do was send in the DNA. IALHA did email me asking if I meant ‘gray’ when I clearly wrote ‘bay’, and that was as difficult as it got. I am sure, like all registries, they have their issues. Personally I have not experienced them, but am not a breeder nor immersed in their show program.

USPREA/ANCEE on the other hand, has been a huge pain in my a$$. Plus they move at a glacial pace. Less than glacial, actually.