What do his offspring have to offer? Who is his best decendant in terms of siring abilities. I am particularly interested in Furst Piccolo , Farewell III and Fidertanz. What kind of mares do they need…and what do they bring to the plate?
I am also assuming that frozen from Fidermark himself is impossible to get?
Thanks!
Fannie mae is the person to ask, as she sees a lot of that bloodline in Germany and knows it well. I have bred 4 grandget of Fidermark, all by the same sire Festivo (now in Switzerland). All were tall (but that is not something normally associated with that line) but they do seem to have the more typical bone and strong frames. The best two are full sisters out of a superbly bred Trakehner mare. I also used a Fidermark grandson on one of my coloured mares and have a superb colt foal, but obviously thats another generation further back
Thanks for the info, hopefully she will post here soon:D
not so sure if can help as i have little encouraging to say.
as there is no son out there who would come even close to the sire’s breeding value.
and no, there is no frozen available by fidermark.
they spoiled the last doses due to inappropriate storage.
the sons you’ve picked:
fidertanz with this years licensing crop rather “off”, specially in vechta/odbg. the fact that he sired the licensing winner in handorf/westf doesn’t really make up for that - nice horse but no such thing like a true celebrity.
the not-so-shiney outcome of this first years’ “matured” fidertanz crop counts even harder since out of all the fidermark sons fidertanz sure was the one being m o s t l y and most e x p e n s i v e l y marketed - remember that recent big hype specially about auction foals o/o those spectacular de niro mares , the “wahler” influence -?
fidertanz x de niro almost being recongized to be the hottest nick on earth and everybody agreed to that???
so where have all these spectacular foals gone - ?
had he had lesser breedings and no spectacular foal crop being praised over and over again i wouldn’t put too much of an emphasis on this year’s licensing circus.
but he was the one with the most to loose and i’ld say he did.
does that make his foals ridinghorses of lesser value?
i don’t think so.
but it sure teaches one thing again:
you cannot breed for spectacularity in a stallion.
as spectacularity can not be duplicated.
if that was the case you’ld probably be cloning rather than breeding.
the more spectacular the stallion the more you have to loose.
fidertanz has a lot to loose, apart from his obviously dominant (heritage) type being a question of taste, anyway (heavy in bone and head/neck)
i’ld go for the one’s of lesser stellar appearance.
here’s one:
farewell I (“one”) - as opposed to no.III mentioned by you.
as farewell III is probably the second most popular fidermark son with respect to marketing. nothing wrong with him but i haven’t seen any remarkable get by him either. neither has talk about remarkable get arrievd at my front door.
however, farewell I, the first o/o this dynastie of 5 full siblings is the smallest and probably least impressive of all of them.
yet he might be the most meaningful even though people haven’t recognized yet…
being laughed at as a “pony” and loudly questioned why s.o. would be so naive to even show such “pony” of “mise-gaites” at the warendorf bundeschampionat?
these comments are well remembered.
amazing how history repeats itself an people still wouldn’t learn from it:
as fidermark was a “pony” too.
people laughed at him big time.
the loudest ones however were taught differently afterwards and have learned to shut up, though.
maybe the same is going to happen with farewell one?
since because of his “poor” reputation he probably didn’t have many breedings in the first place.
however, he seems to be delivering…
i remember two of his sons licensed in westfalia (damsire st.tropez/tolstoi) and both of them caused wow-effects with me even in young age, one of them being sold to sweden, the other still at the state stud warendorf and at this year’s stallion parade without even knowing it was him yet another remarkable appearance o/o group of 16 or so…
not sure if these are the only overwhelming two out of a group of only ten or so sired by FwI- however - the others (sons of fidermrak, that is) have lacked completely to even deliver such group of two…
plus, he does seem to be producing slighly lighter in type&bone (compared to FwIII).
so maybe little farewell I deserved more more attention than fidertanz?
if i was visiting wahlers stud i would most certainly ask to get to see some farewell kids rather than those of fidertanz.
fürst piccolo.
given his huge similarity to the sire probably the one most appreciated in warendorf.
meanwhile his first kids in higher classes helped promote his position in the zuchtwertschätzung.
i would breed to him in a heartbeat if i had a mare “matching” him rather than “complementing” him - as he does produce all kind of get and all kind of types but those are not the ones i want. if i want fidermark i want him for a reason:
compact type.
elasticity.
rubber ball quality.
exactly like fürst picc.
obviously lots of these features are being consolidated in both their specific “types” - forget about longleggish longnecked “modern” horses - no such thing.
as such, i wouldn’t want to breed such mare to him either.
if any, i want his “dupe” not his “complementary” addition…
we will hopefully see in the following years if one or the other of his sons turns out to be a relyable producer.
schockemöhles for compliment after all comes from a station that provides him with everything a young stallion needs for a succesful start up:
the triple “m”.
money, marketing&mares…
my very personal assumption however is that if any it will be son of lesser popularity who might show up to be the better producer… a smaller rounder “grippier” one… more in the type of the sire, that is. deeper set. and it should be a chestnut, too.
after all, what really made fidermark “special” is the fact that he turned out to be a great producer with respect to engine and “go” - no matte rwhat type he porduced. and i haven’t yet found a son to take over that heritage with the same high percentage of “siring ability”.
so probably his heritage is going to be manifested within his daughters who - in my very personal view- have already become an equal synonym to “broodmares by weltmeyer” - and most certainly no coincidence both these powerful stallions (hindleg swing and push) are the opposite of everything that currently sells high:
black.
longleggish.
modern.
as real quality is timeless.
Very, very astute observations, Fannie Mae (as usual!)
Thanks, you have rather confirmed my own thoughts.
Thanks for that post, Fannie Mae.
I can tell you he was a gorgeous stallion - I saw him in Warendorf when he was a young stallion - just approved. I commented to the Director that I’d take him home in a minute. So sad that he died so young.
Fannie Mae, thanks for your wonderful insights!
I really do know much about the line, but am looking for a stallion of smaller size to use on my BIG waldkoenig x Wodka mare …here is the link:
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148056
I have decided I do not need to really refine her in terms of bone, but I want to decrease her size and I want to add some compactness and I REALLY want to add elasticity and more everything to her trot. I am a big believer in breeding type to type, so I don’t want to use Londonderry or tb type ect. She has a good length of forearm, neck and back, so am wondering if something from the F line would work?. I then did a bit of research on Furst Pic and noticed he is really small and compact…with a beautiful head:)
I doubt it would match well, but this mare aside, what are your feelings on For Compliment?
Farewell I
Dear Fannie Mae: I was most interested to read your comments re Farewell I. I live in Australia and bred a colt foal by Farewell I out of an AA mare this year. He is simply beautiful, has amazing presence and shows early promise of a very good trot. He is extremely photogenic as he stands to attention whenever the camera is about. I have also bred a fantastic colt by Fürstenreich who was awarded the highest assessment score ever from OV assessors. Unfortunately he died at 18 months last July and I have been grieving ever since. I intend to bred more foals from both of these stallions and might give Fidertanz a try later down the track. My email address is: sagunasws@bigpond.com if you care to send me an email I shall send back some photos of the Farewell I colt. Saguna
[QUOTE=Donella;3740677]
Fannie Mae, thanks for your wonderful insights!
… what are your feelings on For Compliment?[/QUOTE]
I think she siad this
[QUOTE=fannie mae;3738671] schockemöhles for compliment after all comes from a station that provides him with everything a young stallion needs for a succesful start up: the triple “m”. money, marketing & mares…
my very personal assumption however is that if any it will be son of lesser popularity who might show up to be the better producer… a smaller rounder “grippier” one… more in the type of the sire, that is. deeper set. and it should be a chestnut, too.
:-)[/QUOTE]
I have to say that the Fidertanz filly I have this year is absolutely wonderful. Gorgeous conformation, great long neck, beautiful head, perfect length of back, perfectly straight legs, good bone, tall, leggy. But the best part is that she’s a fabulous mover. I mean really wonderful. She bounces everywhere she goes & has a soft swinging back, not the stiff legged bounce. Has a walk & canter to die for. Also has a wonderful, soft disposition. Just a great horse. She was named Champion Filly at the large FL AHS inspection. The judges just couldn’t say enough good about her. I’ve noticed that some Fidertanz foals move with a stiff back. This filly’s dam is one of the best movers I’ve ever seen. Just hangs in the air with a loose topline. Fidertanz was a great cross with my mare. She’s in foal to Rotspon for 2009 but planning to breed back to Fidertanz for 2010.
I’ve also seen a really good Fidertanz from Home Again Farm. Marylou’s beautiful Wolkenstanza (top scoring mare in the AHS) produced a great one & also Jill Peterson from Star Quarry Farm has a really nice one.
Fidertanz is like any other sire. Must have the appropriate mare. I think there have been to many stiff-bouncing ones bred but again, there are several out there that are just wonderful but must be careful with what mare you put him to!
If you’re looking for a Florestan descendent, look at Furst Romancier. I’ve got one mare bred to him for 2009. Can’t wait to see this foal. Wonderful, loose mover. Very elastic. Great disposition (from those who’ve met him), lots of joint action but definately a “back mover”. You can check him out on youtube.
I just hate we lost Furst Heinrich so young. He’s really produced some good riding horses.
LOVE Fürst Romancier! I am also very intrigued by the new Oldenburg Siegerhengst, Fürstenball. He is Fürst Heinrich / Donnerhall / Classiker, and looked to be very elastic, through, and swingy at his licensing. It will be really interesting to hear about his first foal crop in 2010.
I agree w/ fanniemae’s observations. For me Fidermark stands for generally shorter, very elastic horses that are difficult to fault as far as basic gaits and power goes. Sometimes I have a small questionmark behind the brain (some can have their own ideas at times and be livelier than the amateur market requires) but I think the progeny generally has a very high chance to be capable of upper level dressage work and most of them are attractive in type as well.
I like the line it definitely attracts me when looking at dressage horses.
kareen, you are making me smile
as your post reminds me of something michael used to say when he would still ride fidermark:
“sometimes the boy [fidermark] can be between genious and insanity…”
here’s a link to both their story in engl:
http://www.muensterland-pferde.de/Fidermarkengl.htm (very unconventional writing, though, don’t expect any commercial praise and glory)
and it was sure something that held true for my own fidermark daughter fabrice,too … genious and insanity specially turned out often when i competed her in dressage - to the good and the bad. (in jumping and eventing the “insanity” would turn completely into the most favourable “spirit” that enabled her to get a job done that she wasn’t even bred for.)
in retrospective most of it certainly needs to be blamed on me, being a much more inexperienced rider back than (not that i consider myself anymore than an amateur rider today) but i have asked myself again and again over time how fabrice and i would do if i started her all over again today, with six more years of experience on many other horses…
whenever michael rode her it was simply amazing - she would turn into a completely different horse (her father’s dance) and i knew i had a long way to go.
same was true for fürst piccolo and his first years at the state stud when michael had already left. i remember his first appearances at a local horse show when he simply freaked out and needed to be disqualified. again: a barely experienced rider in the saddle and the most stupid decision by the state stud to simply let two greenies (horse&rider) appear in public in the first place - fürst piccolo’s image was ruined for the first few years and it was for a reason he didn’t show up in sports anymore up until he was 7 or 8 - different rider, experienced trainer - he made it up to st.george i believe and was finally withdrawn from sports since meanwhile his first get spoke for itself. he has been busy breeding ever since.
completely different story with feinsinn, though (by fidermark bolero grande):
easy and coolest temperament from junior age up until GP.
less spectacular horse though and as such barely any mares/breedings so the state stud finally sold him as an intl dressage stallion. too bad, since his bloodlines most certainly qualify him for one of the most interesting fidermark sons. just that all i looked for back than was spectacularity and that was nothing to be found in feinsinn, neither in his get.
interesting observation in my “later” years on him:
he turned out to become more and more the bolero type of horse the more he matured and had nothing in common with his sire anymore - today i believe this is not a stigma but a lable of it own and could have suited him well had people (incl myself) only understood that the treasure of bolero line is not to be found in spectacularity… but noone cared to even search for it.
same with fiano, another one of the first sons of fidermark crop, still available at the warendorf state stud and the nicest and easiest appearance, just that i don’t favour his damline which carries all titles you can think of but all of them are non-performance titles and a lot of that is owed to the prominence of his breeder - a political issue rather than anything else to me. so far he never delivered anything but nice riding horses - true amateur horses, nothing spectacular. but as i have said before:
better don’t breed for spectacularity in the first place, anyway.
they did the best to market him trying to convince breeders that even though he might lack the spectacularity of his sire he would after all make for a double performance stallion - so he was competed in young horse jumping and dressage classes at the same time.
oh well, that’s what i did with my fabrice, too (and quite succesful, too), however, it would never occur to me to consider her a double talented horse and never would i dare to expect that from her offspring.
if there is one thing i regret today is that i never rode my younger fidermark mare, fannie mae, myself. after michael had repeated with her what he had done with fabrice (rode both of them to the most excellent SLP records) she was never ridden again since already in foal. i had planned on riding her after her first foal since i was eager to find out how i would be able to cope with her, already a few steps further in my own riding compared to how i did with fabrice years ago… and since she is completely different in type&shape (while fabrice truely is her father’s “clon”) i am certain she would be of different temperament, too. but with her first foal being the greatest breeding success for me it would have been outright stupid to not keep her in breeding - as good riding horses are easy to find. quality broodmares aren’t. by now she carries her third foal and i have given up on the idea of riding her.
some things simply aren’t meant to be.
for the folks in the US, there is one of the most talented fidermark kids about to be shown in GP these days: fürst fabio/dr. cesar parra.
same damsire like a.m. fiano (both o/o dams by worldchamp but not further related)
go see him if you have chance to.
former bundeschampion and everything i said about genious and insanity was true for him. when he became bundeschampion age 3 the magazins were all over him - spicey story that had it all. and i’ld be more than thrilled to get to see him again having matured big time and obviously having found the “right” rider.
As Fannie Mae said, the young stallions by Fidertanz in Hannover and Oldenburg were disappointing, so we will have to see about next year. More than anything, I was disappointed with the quality of the walks, and then of course they were heavier in type, albeit with a lot of elasticity. Florencio is also hit and miss, so we will just have to see.
As for For Compliment, I remain intrigued by him, and of course am very interested in Furst Romancier’s offspring.
Furst Fabio is amazing, and Cesar has another really good Florestan mare I believe.
[QUOTE=fannie mae;3742258]
…he turned out to become more and more the bolero type of horse the more he matured and had nothing in common with his sire anymore - today i believe this is not a stigma but a lable of it own and could have suited him well had people (incl myself) only understood that the treasure of bolero line is not to be found in spectacularity… but noone cared to even search for it.[/QUOTE]
Not to hijack this very educational thread, but I’d love it if you would elaborate on what you mean about the Boleros, Fannie Mae. Feel free to PM me or start a new thread.
Sincerely,
Kendra
Flavio
Could anyone out there comment on the relative merits, or otherwise, of the stallion Flavio?? I am not familiar with his dam line and would like to know more about that. I would also like to know how his progeny has been generally evaluated. More information please!!! I am crazy about the ‘F’ line but I am limited to frozen semen offerings in Australia and Flavio is one ‘F’ line stallion that is available in OZ. Saguna
Question:
Any opinions on Falsterbo and what he passes on? I saw him at his licensing, and he just “stood out” in my eyes. I really liked his type and his movement. Don’t see any offspring here in Canada. He has always intrigued me…
I had a very nice Fidertanz filly this year from a Don Bosco mare who has SPS Prince Orac xx and SPS Shogun xx on the bottom - so she is pretty and leggy and feminine, and goes nicely with a larger boned big-moving stallion. The cross worked well. The 08 filly is a striking, tall, feminine chestnut with chrome, and very powerful and active hind end. I have repeated the breeding for 09 and sold the foal in-utero. The 08 model went quickly to a dressage home.
Do all the comments about the line between genious and insanity apply to Fidermark’s sons? How are the Farewell, Fidertanz, etc., offspring turning out?
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