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Can someone tell me about the Oldenburg NA?

Sport Horse Breeding
#221

[QUOTE=tri;2768325]
“They were bred with approved Oldenberg stallions out of approved Oldenberg mares, by the European Oldenburg standards. The ISR/OLD NA is breeding Oldenburgs!!”

Uhmm. No they aren’t being bred by the European Oldenburg standards - it says it right on the ISR website - they are using the Oldenburg name, with the Oldenburg brand BUT THEY ADMIT TO USING DIFFERENT STANDARDS, so please tell me how is that “Oldenburg”?[/QUOTE]

Could someone tell me which standards are different? Besides the fact that GOV does not seem to have a lower book registry.

#222

Let’s look at differences in “standards.”

Let’s take one hypothetical horse: Paint mare, by qh stallion out of paint mare. Presented for inspection at both ISR/ONA and GOV. Scores the same in both registries by their inspectors with a respectable score that would put a warmblood mare into the main mare books of both.

She would not be turned down by either.

With ISR/ONA she would go into the ISR premare book and her foals would only be registered and branded with the ISR brand - not the O & crown. Could not produce a stallion prospect.

With GOV she would go into the Pre mare book and her foals WOULD be registered GOV and microchipped as such. Could not produce a stallion prospect.

#223

GOV has 4 mare books actually.
Main Mare book (highest)
Mare book
Pre mare book I
Pre mare book II

mares must meet score and pedigree requirements to be considered in the MMB. Lesser scores and inadequate pedigree and they will drop down. These are the same books they have in Germany. I believe in Europe there is a rule that all horses…even grade ones must be able to get a paper of some sort so the lesser books would fulfill that role although I think you do not tend to want to use those as breeding stock.

Also GOV does not do a MPT in the US but does give Premium and Elite mare status. To become a Premium mare she must be MMB and score 7.5 or above…something that you do not see too many of as the scoring is usually pretty tuff.

#224

What are the different pedigree and score requirements for each mare book, in each registry, anyone know?

#225

[QUOTE=tri;2768325]
“They were bred with approved Oldenberg stallions out of approved Oldenberg mares, by the European Oldenburg standards. The ISR/OLD NA is breeding Oldenburgs!!”

Uhmm. No they aren’t being bred by the European Oldenburg standards - it says it right on the ISR website - they are using the Oldenburg name, with the Oldenburg brand BUT THEY ADMIT TO USING DIFFERENT STANDARDS, so please tell me how is that “Oldenburg”?[/QUOTE]

From the ISR web-site www.isroldenburg.org About Us, Registry,

The International Sporthorse Registry (ISR) and Oldenburg Registry North America (Ol NA) was founded in 1983 in order to provide high quality service to breeders of modern sport horses in North America. The Registry is not a branch of an European breed organization but has adopted the successful breeding philosophy and politics of the German Oldenburg Sport Horse.

The secret of success of the Oldenburg Sport Horse is an “open book” that accepts the best sport horses (stallions and mares) from different sport horse bloodlines- including Thoroughbreds - into ints breeding program.

The ISR - Oldenburg Registry North America brought this philosophy to North America and offers breeders to cross the borders of bloodline restriction for the benefit of improvement of American bred sport horses. The success of the first twenty years of the Oldenburg Registry North America can prove this breeding policy!

How is a ISR/ONA approved stallion bred to a ISR/ONA approved mare not Oldenburg?

I look forward to working with both registries. Holly, with GOV, is a doll and has been very helpful. ISR/ONA has been very fun and educational to work with.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

#226

[QUOTE=tri;2768325]
“They were bred with approved Oldenberg stallions out of approved Oldenberg mares, by the European Oldenburg standards. The ISR/OLD NA is breeding Oldenburgs!!”

Uhmm. No they aren’t being bred by the European Oldenburg standards - it says it right on the ISR website - they are using the Oldenburg name, with the Oldenburg brand BUT THEY ADMIT TO USING DIFFERENT STANDARDS, so please tell me how is that “Oldenburg”?[/QUOTE]

From the ISR web-site www.isroldenburg.org About Us, Registry,

The International Sporthorse Registry (ISR) and Oldenburg Registry North America (Ol NA) was founded in 1983 in order to provide high quality service to breeders of modern sport horses in North America. The Registry is not a branch of an European breed organization but has adopted the successful breeding philosophy and politics of the German Oldenburg Sport Horse.

The secret of success of the Oldenburg Sport Horse is an “open book” that accepts the best sport horses (stallions and mares) from different sport horse bloodlines- including Thoroughbreds - into ints breeding program.

The ISR - Oldenburg Registry North America brought this philosophy to North America and offers breeders to cross the borders of bloodline restriction for the benefit of improvement of American bred sport horses. The success of the first twenty years of the Oldenburg Registry North America can prove this breeding policy!

How are these not Oldenburgs?

I look forward to working with both registries. Holly, with GOV, is a doll and has been very helpful.

#227

The website may have some of that info for you

http://www.oldenburghorse.com/Oldbrg-Inspections.htm

#228

[QUOTE=Sonesta;2769769]
Let’s take one hypothetical horse: Paint mare, by qh stallion out of paint mare. Presented for inspection at both ISR/ONA and GOV. Scores the same in both registries by their inspectors with a respectable score that would put a warmblood mare into the main mare books of both.

She would not be turned down by either. [/QUOTE]

Not necessarily true. I once saw a QH/Arabian mare turned down completely at an Oldenburg (GOV) inspection, partly because of her small size, but mostly because she was a cross of two breeds whose breeding goals are not conducive to producing sport horses.

Even though such mares are sometimes accepted - and it is always into the lowest mare book (PMBII) - they rarely produce more than one foal for the registry, so the overall effect on the registry is pretty minimal.

The “different standards” are in the scoring systems and mare books, as well as in the mare eligibility rules. Oldenburg (GOV) uses the same scoring system here for mares and stallions that it uses in Germany, ISR/ONA uses a completely different scoring system. Oldenburg doesn’t score foals, either here or in Germany; ISR/ONA does score foals. Oldenburg doesn’t have a premium mare book - premium mares are MMB mares of especially high quality, and they receive a special premium mare plaque and are noted in the studbook as premium, but they stay in the MMB. ISR/ONA has a special book for premium mares. Oldenburg does not allow mares with unapproved WB stallions in the past 4 generations into its MMB, ISR/ONA does allow these mares into its MMB.

The disagreement over whether an ISR/ONA horse is an “Oldenburg” has to do with the fact that they are inspected and graded using a different system than what is used in Germany. Some feel that it isn’t right for German Oldenburg breeders to be held to one standard, while North American Oldenburg breeders use a different standard. IOW, all “Oldenburgs” should be produced according to the same standard, whether they are bred in Germany, the U.S., Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Poland, Russia, etc. (and yes, Oldenburg actually goes to Poland and Russia and a bunch of other countries to inspect and register horses!).

#229

There was a thread a while back about Hanoverians with one poster insisting that a hanoverian was a true breed stating that they had to have a certain percentage of hanoverian blood. It was found that in Hanover, they don’t have the 50% hano blood rule and there were breeders in hanover (mostly breeders of event horses) that were breeding almost pure Tbs approved and branded Hanoverian.

#230

I pasted Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society text on the different books

Main Mare Book (Main Studbook) * The mare’s dam must be either in, or eligible for (meaning she has the proper registration, but has not yet been inspected), the Main Mare Book or Mare Book of an acknowledged breeding association. Main Mare Book requires a 4-generation pedigree of approved and licensed stallions - the sire of the mare and all the sires within the past three generations of her dam must be approved and licensed by the Oldenburg Verband or another acknowledged breeding association (See diagram below). In addition, the mare must score at least 6.0 for her overall evaluation, with no single criteria score lower than 5.0. The six criteria are:

-Type (Breed and Sex type)
-Quality of Conformation (made up of scores for head, neck, saddle position, frame, fore limbs and hind limbs)

  • Correctness of Gaits
  • Impulsion and Elasticity (Trot)
  • Walk
  • General Impression and Development

Mare Book (Studbook) * The mare’s dam must be either in, or eligible for, the Main Mare Book, Mare Book, or Pre-Mare Book I of an acknowledged breeding association. Mare Book requires a 3-generation pedigree of approved and licensed stallions * the sire of the mare and all the sires within the past two generations of her dam must be approved and licensed by the Oldenburg Verband or another acknowledged breeding association. In addition, the mare must score at least 5.0 for her overall evaluation, with no single score lower than 4.0.

Pre-Mare Book I (Pre-Studbook I) * Requires a 2-generation pedigree of approved stallions. The mare’s sire and her dam’s sire must both be approved and licensed by the Oldenburg Verband or another acknowledged breeding association. In addition, the mare must score at least 5.0 for her overall evaluation, with no single score lower than 4.0.

Pre-Mare Book II (Pre-Studbook II) * Mares that exhibit the type of a German riding horse but that do not meet the criteria for a higher division can be entered into Pre-Mare Book II.

I have a question -or a few- about the hypothetical mare (by qh out of paint) that Sonesta mentioned - purely trying to learn here.

Upon approval, sufficient scores, and entrance into the lowest GOV mare book (pre mare book II) and being bred to a fully approved GOV stallion, the resulting offspring (GOV x qh - paint), if a mare, would still fall into pre mare book II because of unverified parentage on dam’s sire side, correct?

I am deducing that it would take two generations of offspring before an individual mare could be entered into the pre mare book I (this specific pre mare book I candidate’s pedigree would be by a GOV stallion out of a GOV X paint/qh mare)? So then the third generation offspring (87.5% GOV approved bloodlines) would be by a GOV stallion and out of a mare that was 75% approved GOV bloodlines and eligible for the mare book (three approved/verified generations). And so on?

Side question, the resulting offspring of original hypothetical paint-qh mare and approved GOV stallion - would be pink papered foals, and they would be an oldenburg by name, but if a mare and wanting to reproduce as an oldenburg it would take 3 generations to reach mare book?

Hopefully I did not overstate or mis-state anything - that was not my intention, just curious.

#231

[QUOTE=tri;2771293]
There was a thread a while back about Hanoverians with one poster insisting that a hanoverian was a true breed stating that they had to have a certain percentage of hanoverian blood. It was found that in Hanover, they don’t have the 50% hano blood rule and there were breeders in hanover (mostly breeders of event horses) that were breeding almost pure Tbs approved and branded Hanoverian.[/QUOTE]

The so-called 50% blood rule is intended to address which foals can be registered as “Hanoverians” by the AHS from parents that belong to outside populations. It is intended to address the situation where a foal out of an AHS-approved Holsteiner mare and by an AHS-approved Oldenburg stallion would somehow get AHS papers as a Hanoverian. This breeding would have to have 50% Hanoverian blood to “justify” receiving Hanoverian papers. In similar fashion, this rule prevents an AHS-approved TB mare from being bred to an AHS-approved TB stallion and get a “Hanoverian” foal. Contrary to the above post, the Verband has a similar rule that serves the identical purpose.

The AHS rules on this have been clarified in the last year or so to clearly align with the Verband’s rules. The AHS has made clear that a foal bearing the H or the H-US brand is considered a Hanoverian regardless of its percentage of Hanoverian “blood.” Thus, any breeding animal (mare or stallion) bearing the H or the H-US brand can be bred to any other AHS-approved breeding animal (either Hanoverian or non-Hanoverian) to produce a Hanoverian foal.

So yes, a mare having a Hanoverian brand can be bred to an AHS-approved TB stallion and her daughters can be bred to AHS-approved TB stallions and those daughters’ daughters can be bred to AHS-approved TB stallions and so on to produce foals with high percentages of TB blood that are still branded as Hanoverians. This applies in Germany as well as here in the U.S.

#232

I have a question -or a few- about the hypothetical mare (by qh out of paint) that Sonesta mentioned - purely trying to learn here.

Upon approval, sufficient scores, and entrance into the lowest GOV mare book (pre mare book II) and being bred to a fully approved GOV stallion, the resulting offspring (GOV x qh - paint), if a mare, would still fall into pre mare book II because of unverified parentage on dam’s sire side, correct?

I am deducing that it would take two generations of offspring before an individual mare could be entered into the pre mare book I (this specific pre mare book I candidate’s pedigree would be by a GOV stallion out of a GOV X paint/qh mare)? So then the third generation offspring (87.5% GOV approved bloodlines) would be by a GOV stallion and out of a mare that was 75% approved GOV bloodlines and eligible for the mare book (three approved/verified generations). And so on?

Side question, the resulting offspring of original hypothetical paint-qh mare and approved GOV stallion - would be pink papered foals, and they would be an oldenburg by name, but if a mare and wanting to reproduce as an oldenburg it would take 3 generations to reach mare book?

Hopefully I did not overstate or mis-state anything - that was not my intention, just curious.

My understanding is also the same…after many generations you could dilute the QH enough to get a foal that would be in the upper books (As long as the movement scores were also enough). But the question is why would you do that? To wait generation after generation. There are people dabbling with color who may have tried to do it but still there is no guarantee after so many generations that the color will stick.

I do not know if there was QH beyond the 4th generation if they could still consider a colt a stallion prospect. I guess the GOV would need to answer that directly to you.

#233

I was just trying to understand the example set forth and trying to understand one of the registeries in which our family breeding farm is a member more accurately. We purchase, breed, and raise horses from GOV and AHS eligible bloodlines (ex. main mare book or elite eligible - all generations, not 4th).

This discussion has been helpful!

#234

[QUOTE=carosello;2772534]
I do not know if there was QH beyond the 4th generation if they could still consider a colt a stallion prospect.[/QUOTE]

I believe it would take at least 6 generations, since stallions have to be out of MMB mares who are out of MMB mares. IOW, it would take 4 generations to get to the first MMB mare, 5 generations for the second MMB mare, and 6 generations for the stallion prospect colt.

#235

I just wanted to ask if anyone knew if the original score required for Premium mare was 7.5 or 7.0? My mare was inspected pre-split and it was 7.0 at that time. I assume it would have been the same as the GOV pre-split so 7.0 was the standard. Now it is 7.5 and thus my mare is no longer eligible (she received a 7.0).

I’ve also been told that American-bred mares are not eligible for Elite status in the GOV, even if they meet all the other requirements, which seems a little unfair to me.

#236

I do not know what the pre-split score would need to be Premium…I only know that it is 7.5 for GOV now.

Also this is from the website re: Elite status. I do not see anything which says German born only.

For mares with Oldenburg foals, and who meet one of the following criteria:
1. Mares with the title “States Premium Mare” and/or those with the title “States Premium Candidate” (awarded only in Germany) who have had at least 3 foals registered with the Oldenburg Society of which 50% were awarded premium.
2. Mares that have had at least 2 foals registered with the Oldenburg Society of which 50% were awarded premium, and have themselves met the minimum performance requirements in competition. Those requirements are: In Dressage, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd with a minimum score of 60% in 3rd level, or three times in the awarded placings in classes above 3rd level. In Jumping, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd at a height of 1.20 meters, or three times in the awarded placings at the height of 1.25 meters or higher. In Eventing, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd at Training Level or three times in the awarded placings in Preliminary level or higher. The performance results listed here must be achieved at a show that is officially sanctioned by the national riding federation of the respective country. Schooling show results will not be accepted.
3. Mares who have had at least 4 foals registered with the Oldenburg Society of which 50% are mares who have been awarded Premium status, States Premium, and/or States Premium Candidate status, or of which 25% are stallions who have been approved by the Oldenburg Society.
4. Mares who have had at least 4 foals registered with the Oldenburg Society of which 50% have met the minimum performance requirements in competition. Those requirements are: In Dressage, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd with a minimum score of 60% in 3rd level, or three times in the awarded placings in classes above 3rd level. In Jumping, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd at a height of 1.20 meters, or three times in the awarded placings at the height of 1.25 meters or higher. In Eventing, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd at Training level, or three times in the awarded placings at Preliminary level or higher. The performance results listed here must be achieved at a show that is officially sanctioned by the national riding federation of the respective country. Schooling show results will not be accepted.

Mares which fulfill the conditions in 2 and 4 must also have received an above average overall score from the Oldenburg inspection committee. Mares with the Premium title generally fulfill this condition.
To receive the Elite Mare status, the owner must apply by sending a letter to the North American Office with the mare’s registration and pedigree information as well as a list of the fulfilled requirements.

#237

[QUOTE=schwung;2773501]
I just wanted to ask if anyone knew if the original score required for Premium mare was 7.5 or 7.0? My mare was inspected pre-split and it was 7.0 at that time. I assume it would have been the same as the GOV pre-split so 7.0 was the standard. Now it is 7.5 and thus my mare is no longer eligible (she received a 7.0).

I’ve also been told that American-bred mares are not eligible for Elite status in the GOV, even if they meet all the other requirements, which seems a little unfair to me.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think her pre-split score matters. She would have to earn the current qualifying score at her re-inspection.

And I agree with Carosello, I don’t think the Elite title has anything to do with where the mare is bred or born. An American-bred mare is not eligible for State Premium status, so maybe that is what your source was thinking of.

#238

Help!! I’m confused Sonesta! Is your example truly hypothetical or can a QH cross be taken for inspection?? Several pages back I read something about way back when the bruhaha began QH’s were being passed “under the table”. I understand something unethical was going on at the time, but I’m at a loss as to why QH blood would be banned from wb breed registries if the horse passed an inspection process. I certainly understand that is what the AWR and ASR registries can be for, but if you have a QH x Hano or Old or Trak or whatever, why can’t that offspring be inspected by the breed registry of the wb?

#239

I used the QH/Paint as a hypothetical, but such mares CAN and DO get inspected and approved by both registries. As stated, with ISR/ONA the mare goes into only the ISR book and has a foal that is registered ISR, not Oldenburg NA.

With GOV, the mare goes into the PreMare book and the foal gets regular pink papers and is called Oldenburg. True, it cannot produce a stallion prospect, but it’s still called and registered Oldenburg.

#240

Is a horse already registered with the GOV eligible for registration with the
ISR (does the ISR accept GOV as sufficient papering?)?

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