With your example here, Sonesta, it appears as if the ISR/OLDNA is making a superior separation by using the ISR books, brands, and registration papers on your example. With GOV it looks like all get the same papers, but of course no brand. Do all GOV foals get the implant? Is there anything on their paper work to show they are the result of a lower marebook/studbook?
I have a client who owns such a GOV registered horse. I will get her to send me a copy of her papers and will let you know.
Is a horse already registered with the GOV eligible for registration with the
ISR (does the ISR accept GOV as sufficient papering?)?
It seems youāre asking 2 different questions at the same time. WBās can ONLY be registered in one registry. They can be approved for breeding, at 3 or older, with anyone who will take them
Lordy, Iām so confused! Help Sonesta!!! :eek:
I actually have a QH registerered mare in foal to Rolling Stone (Old). Iāve been told her foal can only be registered by AWS because of the QH blood. Iād LOVE for this foal to be eligible registered OLD (Iām not smart enough to know WHICH Old) rather than AWS. And, Iād love for this foal to be inspected if it is as nice as I suspect itās going to be but of course it canāt be inspected if itās not registered!
Your QH mare can be inspected for the ISR MARE BOOK. Her foal by Rolling Stone will be scored - as all other foals are. The foal will receive ISR papers - branding is optional for ISR. The foal will be eligible for a Premium foal award if it scores high enough. You will need an ISR/OLDNA breeding Certificate from the Stallion owner. Papers a 5 generation pedigree for the mare.
Youād have to check with GOV on whether they are still inspecting QH mares and putting them in the PreMare book. As ise@ssi said, your mare, if she scores well enough, could go into the ISR mare book and the foal would get ISR papers (and branded if you wish). If the latter, you would not refer to the foal as Oldenburg; rather ISR. Only those mares in the ISR/ONA main mare book or above get Oldenburg papers and brand.
Without a doubt, yaāll have made my day! Thank you!!!
I believe the Belgian Warmblood Registry would also inspect your Quarter Horse mare. Check with them to see if they will accept Rolling Stone as an other registry stallion. She may be eligible for the MMB with them.
And after checking with the office if they would inspect the mare for Pre Mare Book II the other option may be getting a Certificate of Pedigree.
Oldenburg (GOV) does still accept QH mares but they always go in the lowest mare book, PMBII. I have actually seen very few lately at our inspections here, and they have all been sport horse types and not stock types. We had a very nice QH mare at the Georgia inspection last year - one of the first QH mares I have seen here in many years. She was 16h with good sport horse type conformation and actually scored quite well. You could see the QH in her gaits - not much elasticity or suspension or scope, but otherwise you might have thought she was TB (other than color - she was red roan). She had a very nice Sure Hit filly at her side with lots of elasticity and suspension and the inspector (Katrin Burger) said it was a shame the dam was QH because the filly was a premium quality foal (but couldnāt get a premium award because the dam wasnāt in the MMB).
I honestly donāt know if they would accept a pure stock horse or typical QH halter type. The office told me last year that there arenāt very many QH or other āoff-breedsā coming to the inspections these days, and there have been very, very few of them that have presented more than one foal for the registry, so they feel that the impact on the registry from these foals is pretty minimal.
The mare book placement of the dam is denoted on the pedigree page of the registration passport for Oldenburg (GOV) foals, so even if a filly from a QH mare comes back for mare inspection, the inspectors can see on her paperwork that she came from a PMBII dam and they will place her accordingly in the studbooks. Again, mares can only move up one studbook per generation, so it takes 4 generations before a descendant of a QH mare can get into the MMB - thatās plenty of time for the QH blood to be diluted.
Just looked at friendās pedigree. The ONLY indication that this āOldenburgā is any different from any other Oldenburg is that on the pedigree page there is a notation that the foalās dam in in PreMare Book II. Hard to find unless you know where to look.
So, bottom line to ME is that while I donāt breed either ISR/ONA or GOV, iit seems that ISR/ONA makes a clear distinction between the two and one could easily purchase a GOV registered horse that is really a QH (or other off breed) cross.
[QUOTE=Sonesta;2776901]
So, bottom line to ME is that while I donāt breed either ISR/ONA or GOV, iit seems that ISR/ONA makes a clear distinction between the two and one could easily purchase a GOV registered horse that is really a QH (or other off breed) cross.[/QUOTE]
So would GOV let in a draft horse or a draft cross and just label it PMBII? I know that ISR will take those.
[QUOTE=Sonesta;2776901]
Just looked at friendās pedigree. The ONLY indication that this āOldenburgā is any different from any other Oldenburg is that on the pedigree page there is a notation that the foalās dam in in PreMare Book II. Hard to find unless you know where to look.
So, bottom line to ME is that while I donāt breed either ISR/ONA or GOV, iit seems that ISR/ONA makes a clear distinction between the two and one could easily purchase a GOV registered horse that is really a QH (or other off breed) cross.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but if you are purchasing a riding horse, Iām not sure it matters if it is a QH cross. If it can do the job, it can do the job. My former hunter trainer told me a few years ago that one of the nicest young hunters she had seen recently was sired by a QH stallion out of a WB mare! Also, I suspect that a lot of these sporthorse type QH mares going into the Oldenburg PMBII have a fair amount of TB blood. The one we saw at the Georgia inspection last year had over 75% TB blood.
Now, if you are purchasing a filly with the thought of possibly breeding her down the road, it could be a problem for some folks, but the real issue is that she herself would still only be eligible for PMBII - remember it takes two generations of approved stallions to move up to PMBI. Most knowledgable buyers would opt instead for a mare eligible for MMB, and once more - there just arenāt a lot of QH mares showing up at Oldenburg inspections these days.
[QUOTE=Iron Horse Farm;2777104]
So would GOV let in a draft horse or a draft cross and just label it PMBII? I know that ISR will take those.[/QUOTE]
Iām not sure they would take a straight draft mare. They will take a mare with SOME draft blood, but I think only if she shows up at an inspection with a foal at her side that was sired by an approved WB stallion. If the mare comes to an inspection as a maiden, Iām not sure they would accept her. And again, these mares go only into PMBII, which is noted not only on her inspection report, but also on their foalsā registration papers.
Iām not pleased that GOV would accept any QH or draft blood in any of their books. It actually disappoints me greatly and I wish they would change that policy. Even so, I will never take any of my mares to OLD NA/ISR until they allow GOV to use their brand again. But, I highly doubt that will ever happen and Iām sure they could care less if I never present a mare or register a foal with them.
Iāve held back until now but Iāve decided to say this because I think newbys should hear it.
I have never been to an Old NA/IRS inspection but Iāve heard time and time again that Old NA is much too generous with their scoring system. Iāve heard of fellow breeders taking their āpremiumā mares to AHS and not being accepted. Iāve also heard of too many foal premiums being awarded. Most buyers rely on and make their purchases based upon those āpremiumā awards, especially those who buy off of videos. When I purchase an AHS or GOV mare or foal, I know that they were judged and scored honestly and modestly.
Graystone - the scoring system for the ISR/OLDNA is not DISHONEST - as you stated.
You donāt like the registry and wonāt use it - fine. Youāve never been to any inspections but feel comfortable stating they are not honest, nor modest. Iāve never been to any GOV inspections and wouldnāt comment on them even based on other individuals observations - it would have no basis in fact.
Having hosted inspections for 13 years - we can say weāve seen the quality of foals and mares presented has gone up significantly. Most return breeders have improved their programs. The premium scoring for the ISR/OLDNA was already increased as far as minimum, adjusted to allow for scoring with more flexibility in the #.s - i.e. tenths. And discussions will probably occur again for changes in the future. The ISR/OLDNA constantly reviews the process to āraise the barā. ALL of the foal scores are published every single year in the breederās guide - few other registries do that. So 100% of the foal results for any given year ARE PUBLIC.
Differences in scoring the same horse exist between alot of registries - often relates to type, sometimes relates to breeding. Sometimes relates to how the horse showed that day. The same thing happens when you take horses to Breed Shows. One horse can have different scores on different days from different judges - does it mean the lowest scoring judge was correct? NO - not necessarily. Weāve all sat at shows and seen a horse that did super in hand the day before - not show well the next day. Weāve also seen in the championships where horses move up in rankings and scores when presented again or when different judges or multiple judges are there.
I had a TB mare who was No. 5 in the country for the NAWPN back when they were scoring TB mares. Later I took her to ONA and she made Main Mare Book, but not premium.
She was a couple years older and that can make a difference.
The NAWPN is well known for not being generous in its scoring.
I am proud of her orange ribbon and have it displayed on her photo in my family room.
Newbies should learn about the registery options and choose what suits their needs.
The size of the country has a lot to do with oneās options for registering a foal if mandatory inspection is a factor.
ise, I never āstate[d]ā that their scoring system was āDISHONESTā. :rolleyes: Iām sorry that youāre feeling a little insecure this morning but, please try to read what is actually written.
No insecurity - just tired of same old same old from people who DONāT like the ISR/OLDNA but CANāT STOP chewing on it.
So far, this has been kept civil up until now. If you donāt agree, then please respond like an adult not like a child having a temper tantrum. No need to shout. :winkgrin:
