From 1988 through 1997 all Oldenburgs bred in this country were inspected and approved because the GOV allowed it. The GOV operated in the USA as Oldenburg Registry North America. No one put a gun to the GOV’s head to come to this country and guide us to breed branded Oldenburgs. The GOV chose to do so. Stepping back a bit, can you image the leadership that allowed “the Split” to happen in our market place, creating a situation where American Oldenburg breeders fight back and forth with this, “My Oldenburg is better than yours” because the GOV’s decisions today are supposedly better than the were for a decade. Who’s to say in another few years the GOV won’t have another shift in leadership and then we’ll all be looking back at this time period and disavowing the horses being entered now. It is so destructive to American breeders to have such confusion in our market place. It serves those with imports, not American breeders. Think about it for a moment, which registry is always pushing the imports… does that serve Amercian breeders?
[QUOTE=DownYonder;2757170]
Good point, I forgot to address that. Warmblood foals can only hold ONE set of registration papers, so you cannot reigster them with both registries. The Oldenburg office told me that the registry will nullify foal papers if it learns that an Oldenburg registered foal was also registered with another warmblood registry.[/QUOTE]
I think Pat Belskie can tell you that there are/ were exceptions to this.
I have heard of people registering foals with the GOV, then taking them to another registry, who would innocently register them with their registry since the foals aren’t branded. If that is found out, I believe both registries would disown the foal.
Agreed Cartier, agreed.
Same as with CWHBA and CSHA in Canada. It is sad indeed and far from being productive.
Once again - the Verband TRUSTED Brysch and Ramsauer to “do the right thing” for the Verband here in N.A. Both men caused problems which still haunt Oldenburg breeders in N.A., and the Verband itself.
At any rate, since the Verband itself now runs The Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society, I doubt it will “disavow” the horses registered here under its auspices. But I do agree, it is confusing to have two major registries operating in N.A. with the same “name”. I don’t how or when it will be resolved. Oldenburg is too gun-shy to join forces with ISR again, and ISR won’t give up the Oldenburg name and brand because that is its lifeline. It sucks in beginning breeders who think it is “the” Oldenburg registry in North America, and long-time ISR/ONA breeders also stay because it is financially expedient for them. No one wants to give up that Oldenburg name.
[QUOTE=Cartier;2757198]
I think Pat Belskie can tell you that there are/ were exceptions to this.[/QUOTE]
That wasn’t an exception, Pat took her foals to ISR/ONA after they were already inspected by Oldenburg. She says she didn’t know it wasn’t allowed, but my understanding is that the Oldenburg office was going to ask her to return the Oldenburg papers.
There was an ad on warmbloodsforsale.com this summer that the breeder stated the foal would be inspected GOV and AHS!!! What are you going to do if unscrupulous breeders do this? And then which registry is at fault? LOL its pretty hard to monitor it all.
Equusmag… we cannot tell you which registry to go with. Do a little homework and visit the respective websites and see if there is information that helps you. You will here plenty of poop from both sides so be prepared to shovel a little :lol:
Here is mare information from the GOV which you may find of help.
http://www.oldenburghorse.com/Oldbrg-InspectionMares-Insert.htm
Cartier wrote
Who’s to say in another few years the GOV won’t have another shift in leadership and then we’ll all be looking back at this time period and disavowing the horses being entered now.
Thanks for your concern, but since you are with the ISR/old you shouldnt really have to worry about this dear! :yes:
In addition to all the things you are already considering, take into consideration customer service. I have a mare who was registered/branded/mare book approved Oldenburg/ISR in the days of the split. Earlier this year I looked at GOV stallions, and seriously considered presenting her to GOV for mare book approval. I had such a hard time getting information, and don’t even go there getting anything permanent, like paperwork, :no: (I’m still waiting for that paperwork), that if I breed to a frozen GOV stallion I will get the foal inspected by Oldenburg/ISR and pay a foreign stallion fee.
I am not sure what year the rule was put in place, (5 to 10 years ago?) that said a horse can only be issued one set of papers by a registry member of the WBFSH. Before that, I beieve many horses were issued 2 sets of papers. I don’t think they would revoke those issued before the rule, but certainly after. With the USDF you have to choose one registry for awards. There is really no reason to register in more than a single registry.
Approval is different, and horses can be APPROVED for breeding in many registries.
Back in 1998, shortly after the new registry for the GOV was formed, I took a mare to be inspected. I don’t know what they were trying to prove, but the inspector had a tree sized chip on her shoulder. She treated all participants very rudely, and not a single mare was placed in the MMB, including a Dutch Ster mare. She treated everyone like they were presenting garbage, and she was thouroughly disgusted at having to be there.
Luckily, I had had my mare inspected the year before, and was just there for the foal. Based on the treatment I saw though, I decided I would never go back. The following year, I took my mare to the Westfalens, and WHAT a DIFFERENCE. It was well worth inspecting her in her 4th <sigh> registry.
Since then, I have tried about 4 tmes over the past decade to get a response about my mare’s DNA typing, and not a single time has anyone even answered my call/email. The Dutch Warmblood Registry has now tried as well just this past month, and they can’t get a response either.
Originally, I was determined to support the GOV, and not the ISR/OLD, but since then I have presented a mare and foal to the ISR/OLD, was treated very well, and will go that route again if needed.
What happened? I apologize for my curiosity :winkgrin:
Changing the breeding rules and scoring systems, putting ineligible mares in the MMB, “backyard licensing” of several stallions, being heavily involved in sales transactions (to the point of taking commissions), promising to approve young stallions if the prospective N.A. buyer purchased the stallion, etc., etc. There was lots of hanky-panky going on at the top but it was the QH mares in the MMB that caused the biggest uproar in Germany. At the time, MMB mares could produce licensed stallion sons, so having a QH in the MMB was a BIG problem. Now, licensed stallions have to be out of a second generation MMB mare, which has helped close that loophole.
Couldn’t have said it better myself…I honestly can’t believe that there are people that say “my Oldenburg is better than yours”…but there are some pretty blatant examples of almost exactly that in this thread…you guys should be ashamed of yourselves for that crap. Why can’t these 2 groups just leave each other alone and play nicely???
I love my OLDENBURG horse…she is beautiful, talented and that’s the end of it. I don’t care what the brand on her butt is, and I can’t imagine anyone saying they wouldn’t buy her (she’s not for sale!) because some German guy didn’t give her the right color papers. That would make them a fool, not me.
Some of you really need to grow up and “get over it”. :rolleyes:
I have also heard that Evelyn, instead of telling someone that her mare just wasn’t the quality and type they were looking for, and why, told her the best thing she could do with the mare was to take her out and feed her to the lions. How does that help someone improve their breeding program?
I have a question. Not simple by any means. I have a HVB kwpn-na mare. She is only HVB because her previous owners who had her since birth never bothered to send in her papers. So at 14 when we aquired her we got her papers. She was retired due to a severe injury and is comfortable enough to be a broodie now. She is however not sound…prior to the injury she was sound and has a huge show record. Since her papers were sent in so late in life and she is not sound…she could not go to a keuring to be put in the main stud book where by linage she belongs.
Fast forward. Her foals are Reg with the Kwpn-na out of approved or lisenced stallions as Reg A or Foal book/studbook.
This year she is in foal to a ISR stallion. He however is of dutch linage. He was also asked to be a member of the Dutch Hunter book but the owner declined :no:.
If he was ISR/GOV and the regiestries had not split he was approved many many years ago this foal could get Dutch Reg A papers…because of the split this foal now can only have a Cert of Pedigree. Again:no:
When I spoke to ISR about getting the foal ISR papers they said we had to have the mare inspected. I explained she is now coming 18 and alough sound at the walk has a deffinate hitch in her gait from her injury at the trot. Not uncomfortable for life just not pretty anymore. The ISR said she would just get a low score most likely.
My question is we have mare with great lines…a huge show record, she obviously moved very well at one point. But becasue she has to be inspected by this Reg at 18 she will be discounted because of injury and age??
The most frustrating part of it all is she is by Pinschallah…who prior to being imported to the US was an approved GOV stallion. He was later approved by the KWPN-NA and thats how she has Dutch papers. She has more Oldenburg in her linage than Dutch!
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2487742750100357206TIoQzT
Here is a picture of the mare taken 3 days ago. She is approx. 6 months in foal.
[QUOTE=clint;2757326]
In addition to all the things you are already considering, take into consideration customer service. I have a mare who was registered/branded/mare book approved Oldenburg/ISR in the days of the split. Earlier this year I looked at GOV stallions, and seriously considered presenting her to GOV for mare book approval. I had such a hard time getting information, and don’t even go there getting anything permanent, like paperwork, :no: (I’m still waiting for that paperwork), that if I breed to a frozen GOV stallion I will get the foal inspected by Oldenburg/ISR and pay a foreign stallion fee.[/QUOTE]
Mystic Owl, I don’t know what timeframe you are referring to, but Holly was out on inspections most of late spring and summer. Did you try contacting the office in Germany?
[QUOTE=Tiki;2757384]
I have also heard that Evelyn, instead of telling someone that her mare just wasn’t the quality and type they were looking for, and why, told her the best thing she could do with the mare was to take her out and feed her to the lions. How does that help someone improve their breeding program?[/QUOTE]
Shall we all give examples of things inspectors say? How about the time an ISR inspector told someone that if he would just buy a certain young stallion from the inspector’s friend in Germany, he (the inspector) would make sure the stallion got approved in N.A. Mind you, the stallion had been passed over at the Verband stallion selections.
Talk about a chip on your shoulder :rolleyes: Was this REALLY necessary DY?
Usually stuff rolls off my back but what a CROCK of you-know-what :mad:
Not everyone who uses Old NA gets “sucked in”. Some people do research, talk to others, and pick the registry that serves them best. And it is the Oldenburg Registry North America…that is the name. I’ve never been confused about it being the GOV and I’m sure anyone with half a pea brain can figure that out as well with a little research. So thanks for making one stupid, sweeping generalization about OLD NA members.
If GOV has a bunch of cranky women like you, thank heavens I made the right choice for me!
Sorry if that offended you. My understanding from talking to many ISR/ONA breeders - many of whom I consider FRIENDS, despite our registry differences - is that they stay with ISR because they have found it financially beneficial to them. After all, it is one of the largest registries in the U.S., it has a lot of very good member services, plus it has that vaunted Oldenburg name and brand. Look, people choose their registry for a variety of reasons. I chose Oldenburg because - as I have said before - no one is going to put the Oldenburg brand on my foals without the approval of the Oldenburg Verband. It has been THEIR brand for most of this century, and actually, going far, far back before that. It just doesn’t seem right to let someone use it without the Verband’s permission. But hey, that’s just me. Other people are free to make their own choices.
And if ISR has a bunch of hot-headed, angry, overly-sensitive and overly defensive folks like YOU, I am glad I picked Oldenburg.
That does not explain my lack of response over 10 years time. Not a single time have I ever had an email, or call returned. And now the Dutch Registry has not had a response from them on my behalf.
I thought it was the International Sporthorse Registry (ISR) and before the split, also the Oldenburg NA. Was told at inspections they were different, they even had different brands. Now you only hear about the OLNA part.
But really, I wanted just post to say, instead of rehashing this, how about people use the search feature to find out more, so we dont end up with another cat fight that gets the forum locked. The search feature does work quite nicely.
