Can We Have An INTELLIGENT Thread On Eight Belles??

Because I know there are some very smart race people on this board, and if I have to read one more omg!!!-im-so-sad-an-mi-dog-is-so-sad-2-n-mi-kid-is-cryin-hre-eyez-out!! post, I think I will just snap.

So please… Glimmerglass? Linny? *Other race-track people? Any thoughts? Info?

I was wondering how common it is to put 200 lbs on horses in the morning. I know it is common to use heavier (than a jockey’s weight) exercise riders, but this amount does seem excessive. Could it have contributed?

What do you all think/feel about this bizarre injury?

*slick this does NOT mean you. You are NOT a race-tracker, so please stay out of this thread. You are on my ignore, and know NOTHING about racehorses, so please slither back to the dressage forum. Thanks.

The injury was a fluke

It’s not completely uncommon to see 180-200 lb people galloping horses in the morning, but I never see them breezing horses. Only galloping. Before someone from Saratoga says “I’ve been working on the NY circuit for 93 years and I’ve never seen that” - my mornings have been spent at Penn, Charles Town, and Mountaineer.

Horselips, I second everything you said! Intelligent information about what happened please. Oh, how long till necropsy reports come out? Any thoughts on that?

I just posted this in another, non-horsey forum. It has some good info from an article in today’s DRF online edition:

This is just more info (with interesting statistics on overall rates of thoroughbred racehorse breakdowns) from the racing community. We are all still reacting with a chorus of “WTF?!”

From an article on the Daily Racing Form Online:

“You’ll see things like condylar fractures or sesamoid fractures in one leg, and as they start slowing down and their mind gets off of the competition, they’ll become aware of the discomfort,” [Kentucky Derby attending track vet] Bramlage added when asked what injuries are most likely after the finish line. “An injury as they’re pulling up is not terribly unheard of. The vast majority of injuries, however, don’t manifest until they’re cooling out, unless the horse becomes structurally unstable in some fashion. Then they start slowing down in the race. None of those scenarios fit here.”

Another equine surgeon named Dwayne Rodgerson reports,

Rodgerson said he knows of no statistics showing how many injuries occur after the finish line. But studies have shown the catastrophic injury rate in Thoroughbred races typically hovers between 1.6 and 2.03 per 1,000 races.

(emphasis mine)

And this is the quote that really just sums it up our WTF?!:

Eight Belles’s injury, and particularly the failure of both front fetlocks, provides a highly unusual and baffling case study for the country’s top equine orthopedic surgeons.

“I’ve never seen it in a horse that galloped out that far after the race,” Bramlage said. "I actually have only ever seen it firsthand on videotape and never in a race where I actually have been. Even in that situation and in situations where a horse injures one leg, they’re not performing like she was performing. She was closing the gap at the end of the race, so it’s not as if she were protecting something or aware, even, that anything was going on. Her level of performance couldn’t have been higher. So there was no outward sign that any of this was impending.

I’ve only seen one double-legged injury in 25 years of racewatching (and that includes the nightly race recaps of the day’s races of multiple tracks), and that was a two-year-old who broke both knees rounding the final turn about 20 years ago in a cheap maiden claimer.

I’m not posting this as an argument (there’s a thread in another forum for that), but just sharing information and insight into the collective :eek: :confused: :cry: reaction the racing community is having.

As far as heavier riders in the morning–my friend Bruce Headley regularly rides his trainees, and he’s no 110lb jock. Yet, he has lost one–one–horse in 50+ years due to a catastrophic breakdown. And, he is well-reputed for having horses with unusually lonig careers, winning stakes at 9, 10, and even 11 years old…so, at least in the case of Bruce, it would seem the weight of the exercise rider has no effect on rates of breakdown.

Given the cirumstances, I’m going to break from proper protocol (beg forgiveness) and quote the entire DRF article Lauruffian referenced here, because it’s truly worth reading, and in order to access it online beyond today you’ll need to be a DRF member:

Eight Belles’ injury rare and baffling Glenye Cain Oakford reporting for the Daily Racing Form:

LEXINGTON, Ky. - Breakdowns of the kind Eight Belles sustained moments after the Kentucky Derby are unusual in horses that are pulling up from a race, equine orthopedic surgeons said Monday. But the strides after the finish line can still present a danger for tired horses.

There are two primary contributing factors for post-race breakdowns, said Dr. Larry Bramlage, an orthopedic surgeon with Rood and Riddle Equine Hospital who was present at the Derby as a veterinary spokesman from the American Association of Equine Practitioners.

“One, they’re tired, so their muscles absorb less of the stress, so they start taking a heavier load on the skeleton,” said Bramlage. "The second thing is, they take their mind off what they’re doing. That’s why you want a jockey to let the horse gallop out over a longer distance and don’t let them start propping to slow themselves down. The propping situation certainly wouldn’t apply here, because the horse had galloped out already a quarter of a mile easing down in speed. As to whether she was tired or not, she’d just run a mile and a quarter - they’re all tired.

“You’ll see things like condylar fractures or sesamoid fractures in one leg, and as they start slowing down and their mind gets off of the competition, they’ll become aware of the discomfort,” Bramlage added when asked what injuries are most likely after the finish line. “An injury as they’re pulling up is not terribly unheard of. The vast majority of injuries, however, don’t manifest until they’re cooling out, unless the horse becomes structurally unstable in some fashion. Then they start slowing down in the race. None of those scenarios fit here.”

Bramlage said close examination of video shows Eight Belles’s breakdown began when her right front leg failed.

“Two steps later, her left front gives way as well, and that’s when she went down,” he said. “She gets very asymmetric [uneven in stride] for about two steps, and then her left front fails.”

That progression has led some to believe the filly’s shifting weight from the right front to the left front likely contributed to the left leg’s failure. She had condylar fractures, vertical breaks from the fetlock area up into the cannon bone, in both forelegs.

Dwayne H. Rodgerson, a surgeon at Hagyard Equine Medical Institute, called Eight Belles’s injury - near-simultaneous catastrophic condylar fractures in both forelegs - “very rare.”

Rodgerson said he knows of no statistics showing how many injuries occur after the finish line. But studies have shown the catastrophic injury rate in Thoroughbred races typically hovers between 1.6 and 2.03 per 1,000 races.

Smaller condylar fractures occur fairly commonly in racehorses and frequently can be repaired. Rodgerson said that horses with more common incomplete condylar fractures often are weight bearing and can appear sound. But the rarer severe cases, particularly ones in which bone breaks completely and through the skin and allows contamination into the leg, as happened on Eight Belles’s left foreleg, can call for euthanasia.

“Once the bone pops out, it goes up the leg, and once that goes the collateral ligament support is gone,” Rodgerson said. “The collateral ligament is what keeps the leg from shifting to the inside or outside, and when they lose that collateral ligament, the joint’s not stable, and it can, in a sense, dislocate.”

In Eight Belles’s instance, the involvement of both front legs left no real option for treatment, Bramlage and Rodgerson agreed, because there was essentially no way for the horse to stand, a key to survival. And the open wound on the left front would have made the risk of infection high, even if surgeons had attempted repair.

Eight Belles’s injury, and particularly the failure of both front fetlocks, provides a highly unusual and baffling case study for the country’s top equine orthopedic surgeons.

“I’ve never seen it in a horse that galloped out that far after the race,” Bramlage said. “I actually have only ever seen it firsthand on videotape and never in a race where I actually have been. Even in that situation and in situations where a horse injures one leg, they’re not performing like she was performing. She was closing the gap at the end of the race, so it’s not as if she were protecting something or aware, even, that anything was going on. Her level of performance couldn’t have been higher. So there was no outward sign that any of this was impending.”

Jockey did everything right, Jones says

Larry Jones, the trainer of Eight Belles, spoke out Monday in defense of jockey Gabriel Saez, who rode Eight Belles in the Kentucky Derby.

“This filly in every race has tried to drift toward the rail,” Jones told The Associated Press in Lexington, Ky. “It’s her comfort zone, and Gabriel knows this. This kid made every move the right move, and I hate it that they’re wanting to jump down his throat. He did not try to abuse that horse to make her run faster. He knew he was second best, that she wasn’t going to catch Big Brown.”

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, an animal rights group, has called for Saez to be suspended, suggesting that he should have known that the filly was injured.

Saez, 20, began to ride competitively in 2006 and was the youngest jockey in the Derby this year. He issued the following statement Monday from his home base at Delaware Park:

“I remain heartbroken over Eight Belles, and I want to let her many fans know that she never gave me the slightest indication before or during the race that there was anything bothering her. All I could sense under me was how eager she was to race. I was so proud of her performance, and of the opportunity to ride her in my first Kentucky Derby, all of which adds to my sadness. Riding right now at Delaware Park and being around the horses and other jockeys is good therapy for me, but I hope the media understands that I prefer not to conduct interviews at this time. Please respect my decision while I mourn my personal loss.”

Thank you for posting this thread. It helps to understand reading from the experts and understanding better from the experience of those that are in this business.

Oh, forgot the other thing I wanted say earlier:

Looking at Eight Belles’ pedigree, she’s got an awful lot of Raise a Native, Native Dancer.

It has long been suggested that certain lines produce horses prone to fractures. Texas A&M is currently putting together a study of retired racehorses in an attempt to find proof of such genetic predisposition.

Retired Racehorse to Participate in Texas A&M Study

More than 100 horses currently being cared for by the Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation (TRF) will take part in a study at Texas A&M University that will attempt to identify genes in horses predisposed to fractures and catastrophic injuries.

“We’re looking for some kind of genetic trait that may make the difference,” said Jana Caldwell, a PhD student in the Department of Veterinary Integrative Biosciences at Texas A&M University’s College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences. She is working with a team specializing in genetics, which is headed by Bhanu Chowdhary, PhD.

“It seems fitting that our horses at the Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation would find a way to give back,” said Diana Pikulski, executive director of the TRF.

The Equine Genetics Laboratory will receive tissue samples from horses who suffer catastrophic injuries from a group of regulatory veterinarians throughout the country. Researchers will also look at TRF horses that did not sustain career-ending injuries in 30 or more starts. This is a blind study, meaning researcher won’t know which group they’re looking at.

“The TRF horses are all over the country and have been exposed to all kinds of track conditions,” said Caldwell. “We’ll use approximately 170 of them in our study.”

No organized studies have been carried out up till now to study the genetic aspect of racing career longevity. Hence, the team is undertaking this work with the long-term goal to identify genetic signatures that can help to predict which horses might be at higher risk of being injured on the track than others.

My now 12 yo OTTB Rasor D (here’s the boy doin’ his thing back in the day) qualified for the study.

Purely for the sake of comparison, Rasor raced from age 2 (his first race was in July of that year, and his actual birthdate is April 20, so yup – he was first backed & ridden as a yearling) through the end of his ten year old year. He raced a whopping 130 times, and retired sound. He does have cold set osselets, but he is truly sound, not what some call “racing sound.” 16.1 hands, and a svelte 1150 lbs the day he came home from the track (he’s packed on a few more since then.) At his peak, he ran at the allowance level with his highest speed figure 91…but mostly he ran in the claiming ranks. He ran at distances ranging from 6f to 1 1/16th mile (with wins at both distances), predominantly on dirt at tracks up & down the east coast.

Here’s his pedigree (note the Fappiano - Mr. P - RAN - ND on top, and that he’s got 5SA x 5SD Native Dancer, amongst other “duplicates”.) Rasor’s final trainer told me that his regular exercise rider weighed 170 lbs.

Did he stay sound because of conditioning? Because of genetics? Because he was too slow, or more cautious? Just good luck? At the moment, noone can really say why for sure.

I think it’s hard to say that there is just one cause, anymore than you can with something like people getting cancer (genetics, lifestyle, etc) because so many thing can play a part. I also don’t think it’s good to blame someone just because we want an easy answer, the way PETA is blaming the jockey.

I have two horses that are going to be part of the soundness study in Texas as well. Hopefully they will learn something meaningful.

Laurierace - really? That’s really interesting - as is the other info posted on this thread.

(disclaimer - I enjoy racing and chasing; but am not part of the industry. However, if this counts, I know how to set up hurdles. Probably doesn’t count, though. :))

I can imagine that the results of this study could benefit all horses and horsemen - not just racing folks.

to OP, on the 4 year old daughter devastation thread you made the comment i’ve been witholding about channeling Barbaro–I’ve been wondering how many people were disappointed they were deprived of months of jingling, candle lighting, and prayer vigils when the filly was put down promptly. This thread has been quite intelligent, and for this I thank you.

I am wondering if there are meaningful comparisons of racing injuries in Britain and elsewhere against the US stats. On another thread a brit made the comment that on the other side of the pond racehorses are still horses, are out on grass, exercised on natural terrain, not nearly so many hours of confinement in stalls. Also not fattened like halter horses for the yearling sales. And I’m also intrigued by the genetic factors, is the fact that JC requires live cover and the distances involved mean the English and American TBs are evolving away from each other in terms of soundness, longevity on the track.

Seconding J Swan that this study can benefit many more horses than racing TBs

I do think they are raced too young and too fast in this country. (and that includes QH futurities of all kinds.) And is it my imagination, based SOLEY on my doubtless faulty memory, or are there more catastrophic injuries in the big stakes races than 40+ years ago when I was a horse-crazy young’un?

I am but a humble trail horse owner and rider and have No Business Posting on the Racing Forum, and only came over here at all in anticipation of a LOT of “what about the children?” threads, which i find full of unconcious humor. Little precious grows up thinking that meat comes from the grocery store, and that death only happens to Other People.

to the OP, thank you for posting this… I was getting so frustrated with the ‘I’ll never watch horseracing again’ posts that i refused to get on the boards for the rest of the day yesterday…

in my experiences working with the farm i’m with in MI, they generally like to keep their exersize riders under 160… There is a guy at the farm however who is at least 180-190 however his 25+ years experience doing this job makes him an extremely valuable part of this team…

The other information posted on this thread has also been extremely interesting, I want to hear more about the genetics studies ect.ect. hopefully in the future…

Thanks for all the info and articles, people.

I know it is common, and even desirable to put a heavier rider on a horse for it’s workouts; it helps get them fit.

But while 160 - 180 may be reasonable, 200 does seem excessive. Especially for the speed works, and especially for such a large - and therefore even slower to mature physically - 3yo.

I can’t help but think in this instance the extra weight might have contributed to a weakening of the bones. When she got tired, the bones gave out.

I have heard of the theory of the Native Dancer blood before.
There was/is an awful lot of that out there. In fact, you might be hard pressed not to find it somewhere in a good horse’s pedigree.

Does anyone know if the filly had her ankles x-rayed, or ultra-sounded anytime this spring?
It is common to routinely x-ray knees and lower legs of the really high-class horses as part of preventative medicine, isn’t it?

Maybe no stress fractures were present, but I’m wondering about bone density.

I’m sure they would not have run her if they could detect any weakness or compromised structure, yet there must be some way to tell if things are beginning to deteriorate.

There is such a fine line between stress and strain. A little stress is good: The structures won’t strengthen without it. Too much turns into strain, and the structures will disintegrate.

There are so many threads up here right now, so not sure if this has come up, but Equus has an article about heart rate variability as a very accurate predictor of injury- really interesting article.

we could, but…

we could have an intelligent thread on racing, but…every time any one suggests changes, or says that racing is doing something incorrectly, we are called “emotional” and “uninformed”. Those of us who have follwed racing for over 50 yrs, go Native Dancer, go Needles, are told since we don’t race or breed, we know nothing. It doesn’t matter that I’ve owned 3 TB mares, 2 of them OTTB mares, it only matters that I think that anyone who would breed a horse with a leg like Barbaro’s, so fragile that it shattered into how many pieces, without reason, except breeding and training, and wasn’t he an April foal, well, when we/I say that…I’m told gee, the horses love racing. I’m not against racing, but I think the horses need to mature, need to be conditioned for strength and endurance and not just speed, and the horses should be treated differently from beef cattle, and not run till they drop or get disabled and then sold to the knackers for 275 dollars. Culturally, we are a country that does not eat horses or dogs or cats, altho we eat cows which is verboten in India. As long as people say that the horses died doing what they love to do, we cannot get beyond the control issue to the welfare issue. No horses likes being whipped. My 3 yrs on the track mare never got over the issue of being last in the barn or last in the paddock, she knew that that could mean a trip to the slaughterhouse, smart girl, but she was bred and raised and trained so she survived 3 yrs on the track, thanks to Mrs. Gallagher of Kentucky, her breeder.

Actually, I think with the one exception of the My poor little baby girl! thread, there’s been a lot of intelligent stuff. Methinks the OP just wanted to be a thread starter :wink:

Anyway, try this article for a reasoned overview and what it was like for the reporters:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tim_layden/05/05/eightbelles.aftermath/index.html?eref=T1

The most intelligent thing I can say about Eight Belles is that sometimes bad things just happen. There doesn’t always have to be someone or something to blame.

I am not a ‘racetracker’ but a racing fan…and have been since I was old enough to figure out how to change channels!! I spent the mid 70’s in England where you could see literally hours of racing coverage (horse and dog) in addition to show jumping and other horsey events on TV every weekend.

What I have never seen is what I am seeing in my now-local newspaper. This paper, that gives us one or two days of coverage before the Derby, Preakness, Belmont and then the Breeder’s Cup (for those counting, that equals less than a dozen articles a year including the results) has had an Eight Belles story EVERY DAY since Saturday. The gist is the same… this is too common… something must change. Even the Barbaro story wasn’t approached this way.

Now, few of these are locally written. They are AP or other services stories sent out through wire but this is unprecedented in my area. It seems to me to be pointing to a groundswell of attention from groups of folks who have never before cared to know.

I don’t know what that forebodes but I think its something racing fans need to be aware of and ready for.

No track rat but have been on the backside in the AM at various tracks, some marquee and some fairgrounds types. Seen good sized men and women-usually trainers and assistants-out there galloping. Not breezing or blowing them out that I have seen. But out there on the daily conditioning circuit.

If Mr Jones, whose exsistence depends on the health and performance of his horses, had the least doubt his size was a problem for his horses? He wouldn’t be out there.

You cannot tell me that strapping big hulk of a 17.1 hand filly was challenged by a simple gallop under her trainer. Who loved her, knew her every nuance and mood because he does ride her.

Certainly did not hurt her dainty little stablemate who blew the Oaks field away on Friday…and didn’t he have Hard Spun last year?

Sorry, find him and his horsemanship refreshing in this day of hedge fund ownership and guys in raybans and Italian suits hyping the next pump and dump scheme with a horse as the commodity.

If I win the lottery, he gets mine. I would be pleased to have him aboard in the mornings.

Thanks to those of you providing interesting info and insights. Like many, I watched the Derby and shed a tear for Eight Belles and all of her people/connections. I don’t particularly care for the age they’re raced at, but I don’t know enough about racing and came here to learn more. So I appreciate the links to good, informative articles. I wish I was still at A&M - would have loved to have been involved in that study.