Can We Have An INTELLIGENT Thread On Eight Belles??

[Beverley]

@LaurieB;3192611

The most intelligent thing I can say about Eight Belles is that sometimes bad things just happen. There doesn’t always have to be someone or something to blame.

Completely agree.

Very sad and somewhat dismaying that many posts on this BB in general seem to support the HSUS and PETA mindset. Probably well intentioned folks who have no clue that these two organizations are really about radical animal rights and couldn’t care less about animal welfare.

Other thought in passing is that I have, several times now, seen people speculating that the fact that the heavy trainer rode this filly somehow contributed to her breakdown. That is nonsense. Please stop speculating.

I fear that some people get wrong impressions about how much MOST trainers care about their horses. Just as farmers/ranchers adopt a stoic attitude about the animals they kill, or sell, for food, pretty much anybody who makes a career working with livestock knows that death and injury are going to happen despite best care and best efforts, and create for themselves an emotional shell that is perceived by people as ‘uncaring.’

And what is really, really frustrating to me is that what gets lost in the shuffle amidst all the emotional hoopla is that people fuss and fume over an animal that had a great life and suffered for only a few moments if at all. Those same people are probably oblivious to horses in their neighborhood, even in their own barn, that have things like ulcers or lameness or teeth that need floating that are in greater discomfort than that filly for days, weeks, months on end.

[Acertainsmile]

As far as weight of the rider…Personally I’ve always tried to find good smaller riders. Usually 130 pounds, unless the horse is really difficult…then I may use someone with a little more “substance”…

I’ve been on the East Coast galloping/training for 25 yrs, and was amazed at the size of the riders when I spent a winter at the Hot Springs meet…There were plenty of “heavier” riders out there.

I dont feel that Larry’s size had any contributing factors to this filly breaking down, it’s possible that genetics played a part, or not.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=Beverley;3192713]

And what is really, really frustrating to me is that what gets lost in the shuffle amidst all the emotional hoopla is that people fuss and fume over an animal that had a great life and suffered for only a few moments if at all. Those same people are probably oblivious to horses in their neighborhood, [/QUOTE]

I disagree with this one point (agreed with everything else you said). Another horrifying result of incidents like this is the now-closed Charles Town thread. People all up in arms, tracking down people’s vets and asking them what’s really wrong with some guy’s horse, arranging to have MULTIPLE people drive by his farm and photograph everything, putting their nose in other people’s business just because they can. It’s for the horses!

Suddenly everybody’s an expert and hears something they admit is 3rd hand but they publish it on the internet anyway and use that innuendo and rumor as an excuse to invade people’s privacy. Really scary stuff.

[Hrsnaround]

Not sure it belongs here

but, I live in Delaware, and our local paper, The News Journal, has actually, surprisingly, been good about the reporting it has done on the topic. I am normally not a fan of the paper, but they have provided “non-emotional”, factual reporting on the topic over the past few days. This morning’s paper had an interview with Mr. Porter in which he defended Mr. Saez, as well as defended his decision about having the filly in the race to begin with. The article also mentioned that some of the spectators at Delaware Park heckled Mr. Saez on Monday after he rode a race - very sad. Also mentioned that PETA protestors tried to get into Delaware Park on Monday and protest at Larry Jones’s barn but were turned away by security.

[lrkrame2]

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2008/05/06/The-Sound-of-Silence.aspx

very well written commentary from Mr. Liebman at the Bloodhorse…

[system]

Bone DEnsity?

One thing I was thinking about the other day. Is it possible to do bone density scans on horses and if so, does it show anything definitive? Jsut a question, but bone DENSITY, not the size of bone, is what matters. One would think that if an individuals bone density were high, that, in the case of tiring or misstep the likelyhood of fracture would be reduced. Just curious, is this part of the study they plan to do (study the density that is)? I know density can be affected by severalt hings, one is obviosuly genetics, second is a gradual workload increase, allowing the bone to model itself slowly to the added stress, third is nutrition. One thing that does happen in sales yearlings, is they push them to GROW rapdily which produces much less dense bone, curious how much that may affect these young TB’s. These are jsut random thoughts!

[Inverness]

thanx

Thanx to all for posting the rational analyses of this tragedy. I truly enjoy watching racing but I can no longer watch it “live.” The excitement/thrill I experience in watching a live broadcast has been slowly overcome by a - perhaps irrational - fear of witnessing an injury.

I’ll continue to enjoy racing via recording - after I’ve ascertained whether the race was free of catastrophic injury.

This is bound to be a difficult time for the industry and I hope that the ensuing research goes far in advancing veterinary science for all horses.

[Twomanydawgs]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;3192535]
My 3 yrs on the track mare never got over the issue of being last in the barn or last in the paddock, she knew that that could mean a trip to the slaughterhouse, smart girl, but she was bred and raised and trained so she survived 3 yrs on the track, thanks to Mrs. Gallagher of Kentucky, her breeder.[/QUOTE]

HUH???:no: Who told the mare that being last meant a trip to the slaughterhosuse? Are you kidding us with this???

[findeight]

@Twomanydawgs;3192823

HUH???:no: Who told the mare that being last meant a trip to the slaughterhosuse? Are you kidding us with this???

Yeah…missed that. You know this horse knows all about things beyond the moment because???

[system]

Thank you for the good information . . .

I, too, am just a fan of the sport of horse racing, but wanted to thank the OP for wanting to post for thoughtful information regarding Eight Belles.

Right now, many of my horsey friends are up in arms and are counted amongst those who will “never watch racing again”. I will continue to watch, and enjoy, thoroughbred racing. Why? Because I enjoy watching great athletes do what they’re best at, and, the racing will continue whether I watch it or not. Frankly, I want to see a Triple Crown Winner in my lifetime.

Death happens in all equine disciplines - I personally saw a Belgian drop dead in the traces at a horse pull. It was horrible to watch, but what was worse was people in the stands immediately criticizing the teamster (who was sobbing over his horse, BTW).

What needs to happen is thorough, intelligent analysis, research and discussion. Are thoroughbreds really thinner-boned and have weaker feet than they did 50 years ago? I would guess that much work on a three-year old horse is too much, but hasn’t it been done that way for over a hundred years? Although what happened to Eight Belles was shocking and horrific, weren’t there 19 other horses on the field that finished the race uninjured? What would be considered statistically significant in terms of injuries/breakdowns? Also, haven’t the statistics on catastrophic breakdowns improved since the eighties?

[Beverley]

@Anne FS;3192729

I disagree with this one point (agreed with everything else you said). Another horrifying result of incidents like this is the now-closed Charles Town thread. People all up in arms, tracking down people’s vets and asking them what’s really wrong with some guy’s horse, arranging to have MULTIPLE people drive by his farm and photograph everything, putting their nose in other people’s business just because they can. It’s for the horses!

Suddenly everybody’s an expert and hears something they admit is 3rd hand but they publish it on the internet anyway and use that innuendo and rumor as an excuse to invade people’s privacy. Really scary stuff.

The Charles Town thread has nothing to do with my point. That is lynch mob mentality. But you raise an issue to be considered by lovers of all disciplines- if we don’t police ourselves we WILL be subject to being policed by the unqualified and uninformed.

My point is that watching a horse break down on national tv stirs people up, but they are too busy pointing fingers and screaming to focus on the real welfare issues in their own back yards. How many horse owners out there who are thinking, in reaction to the Derby, that horse racing is ‘just awful,’ own horses that have undiagnosed bleeding ulcers, for example? IOW they are oblivious to their own shortcomings in horse management whether caused by ignorance or neglect, but quick to jump on the let’s bash racing bandwagon. Don’t know if this clarifies or not!

[Twomanydawgs]

[QUOTE=jeano;3192409]
to OP, on the 4 year old daughter devastation thread you made the comment i’ve been witholding about channeling Barbaro–I’ve been wondering how many people were disappointed they were deprived of months of jingling, candle lighting, and prayer vigils when the filly was put down promptly. This thread has been quite intelligent, and for this I thank you.

I come over here at all in anticipation of a LOT of “what about the children?” threads, which i find full of unconcious humor. Little precious grows up thinking that meat comes from the grocery store, and that death only happens to Other People.[/QUOTE]

How many people were deprived of months of jingling,candle lighting and prayer vigils. You feel deprived Jeano? Please tell me I misunderstood your post. PLEASE.

Moving on…Am I correct in my thinking that the Eng bred horses are much more coarse than the American breds? And does anyone know the comparison between the number of horses breaking down here verus there?

[Beverley]

@cloudyandcallie;3192535

My 3 yrs on the track mare never got over the issue of being last in the barn or last in the paddock, she knew that that could mean a trip to the slaughterhouse, smart girl, but she was bred and raised and trained so she survived 3 yrs on the track, thanks to Mrs. Gallagher of Kentucky, her breeder.

You know, I think you mean well, but statements like this support the notion that you are lacking in basic knowledge, no matter how many decades you’ve been watching racing.

Horses do not know from slaughterhouses. There are many different reasons your mare would have been anxious about being solo in a barn or a paddock. One of those could be the concept of being attacked by a predator, certainly, but to theorize that your ‘smart gal’ new about meat processing plants is, well, ridiculous, sorry.

[hessy35]

I don’t know why so many people don’t ever bring up the obvious - these horses are too young to be pounding down a stretch at that distance at those speeds. Their bones are not fully formed and horses do not stop growing until they are 5 years of age. Putting a horse on the track at 2 is just asking for it to break down… and even if they are well trained and strong, their bones are still not finished growing. In my opinion, that is why most races horses are washed up by 5 (the actual age for full growth). If you want to see injuries like these disappear, then stop training race hoses at such a young, vulnerable age.

[Twomanydawgs]

Not ever going to happen Hessy and I think you are right but it’s all about the $$$. If people have to wait 5 years to race their horses they will lose money…Racing is big money…did you see all the Visa logos on the guys at the gate…EVERYTHING had some kind of advertisement on it…every sentence said by the announcers contained a plug of some sort…breeders get big money for some of their yearlings…that would go out the window if they were forced to wait until the horses were older…it just all boils down to money…from the mare owners right on down to the states who have their hand out for their take of the betting money. Don’t know the answers…but don’t think you will see too much change unfortunately.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

@Twomanydawgs;3192867

Moving on…Am I correct in my thinking that the Eng bred horses are much more coarse than the American breds? And does anyone know the comparison between the number of horses breaking down here verus there?

No one knows, because there is no one stat anywhere. I have seen different estimates trotted out from time to time, usually putting US racing anywhere in the 1.3-2.0/1000 fatalities/start range, and European flat racing in the .5-1.0/1000 range. But don’t kid yourself, there are catastrophic breakdowns in high profile races on the other side of the Atlantic too. Remember Horatio Nelson breaking a leg in the Derby two years ago, and his jockey holding him in the stretch three legged in front of 100,000 people? Or Gypsy King breaking his shoulder and collapsing in the Irish Derby in 2005?

TB breeding is international, bloodlines are quite mixed up. A lot of US bred horses race in Europe, albeit bred for turf racing (the winner of the Guineas on Sat, Henrythenavigator, is a KY bred son of Kingmambo… see the Guineas thread). Flat race pedigrees tend to have converged. If anything there is a divergence with Turf vs Dirt, not so much one side of the atlantic vs the other. There are a few hold outs with distinct pedigrees, like Monsun (see Guineas thread for mention of him). But flat racers in general don’t look all that different.
Now, the classic National Hunt horse would look different from the modern TB seen on the backside of a US track, but even then horses are individuals so there are plenty of exceptions. Besides, a NH bred horse would be useless in US racing, they would be way too slow, as it’s a whole different ball game.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Precocious horses vs late developers and stayers-

The statistics on catastrophic injuries since the late 1800’s would be informative- if they exist for all that period of time and if there is concurrence on what a catastrophic injury is. (I’m not trying to be flip here, is it muscular, bone breaks, or only bone breaks that result in the horse being put down?)

As for the last 100 years and how horses were treated, I was reading some information last night on Domino. That horse was raced hard when young and began to bow tendons, if the information is correct, and was “achy” during most of his career.

Following that line to Colin, it was said that he too, retired due to soundness issues, but his main competitor at the time, Fair Play, raced on and raced sound.

There may be some genetic issues there, no doubt, but as part of those issues, I began to wonder if there is also a connection to those precocious horses and how fast they develop, to soundness and durability. Do late developers last longer because they can’t be run successfully at younger ages, or is the precocious horse a victim of his own abilities at a young age, i.e., the talent expresses young but the lack of structure to support it is the trade off of the early talent? I don’t mean the compromise is because they are then run too young, but that in the genetics of what makes up precocious horses is perhaps less dense bone.

Does the precocious horse “finish up” his physical development faster, but at the cost of less dense bone? Is there a trait that says, “OK, done maturing,” even if the bone structure hasn’t caught up?

Does a late maturing horse develop better bone, and why? Is it a matter of how long they get to mature, or a difference in the process itself of creation of the bone structure and the time involved in laying that down?

If breeding for speed is the problem, what is it about the traits of “speed” and the genetics of how the bone is developed that creates the fragility?

And maybe the horses in the last derby would not all be considered precocious, but still had the bloodlines for that.

(Of course with the champions of the past, like Man O’ War, they seem to have had both going for them- and maybe that is part of the difference)

[hessy35]

[QUOTE=Twomanydawgs;3192922]
Not ever going to happen Hessy and I think you are right but it’s all about the $$$. If people have to wait 5 years to race their horses they will lose money…Racing is big money…did you see all the Visa logos on the guys at the gate…EVERYTHING had some kind of advertisement on it…every sentence said by the announcers contained a plug of some sort…breeders get big money for some of their yearlings…that would go out the window if they were forced to wait until the horses were older…it just all boils down to money…from the mare owners right on down to the states who have their hand out for their take of the betting money. Don’t know the answers…but don’t think you will see too much change unfortunately.[/QUOTE]

I know it’s about money… but think how much MORE money owners would make with sound horses that could run for 3 or 4 years?? It’s backwards thinking and greed talking… Instead of talking about the track surface causing all of these problems, talk about the TRUTH - the hoses are too young.

[slc2]

sure moderator horselips, as nice as you’ve been to me here i really want to do whatever you say.

about the same time you stay off any threads i start, and quit with the personal threats and insults. :lol:

[Rev-Rider]

Does anyone know if there going to release the necropsey, (Ehhh spelling) results? Some of the public is saying insurance $$$ was to blame for putting her down so quickly. IMO if it’s as bad as they say, the quicker the better. As for the jockey, I saw the tapes and hes lucky he wasn’t hurt or killed in that kind of fall.I think I’m joining the “Worried about the preakness club”