[QUOTE=Rev-Rider;3193228]
Does anyone know if there going to release the necropsey, (Ehhh spelling) results? Some of the public is saying insurance $$$ was to blame for putting her down so quickly.[/QUOTE]
Nooo, they put her down so quickly because her injuries would have been impossible to fix. She only had her two hind legs to stand on.
[QUOTE=Rev-Rider;3193228]
Does anyone know if there going to release the necropsey, (Ehhh spelling) results? Some of the public is saying insurance $$$ was to blame for putting her down so quickly. IMO if it’s as bad as they say, the quicker the better. [/QUOTE]
Well, If your going to quote me might as well use the whole statement. I under stand she had no front fetlocks. My question is, are they going to release x-rays, or any information reguarding previous dammage to the legs or is it all going to be kept private? With Barbaro all the x-rays were out there, but then again he was still alive.
Why? I quoted the part I responded to.
As for the rest, I have no idea. I doubt anyone here has any idea.
I also would like to know if horses are examined prior to racing - ie x-raying legs/hooves - bone density etc.
Also wonder about the size of the horse. Overall - smaller horses more sound than larger ones? Eight Belles was a very large filly, yes? If we could compare over the years size, soundness, racing longevity - how would that look? Past hundred years or more - hasn’t the TB become taller? (correspondingly longer more fragile legs?). Wasn’t it AMcKaySmith
some years ago suggesting to add Arab blood back into TB’s for soundness and endurance?
(Of course that won’t happen for racehorses). Thinking outloud - was it Northern Dancer that was smallish? I cannot recall his entire racing/soundness history. Wasn’t Seabiscuit on the small side? He took his knocks but seemingly always recovered and raced for more than just a couple of years, right? Wonder what is average height of the Triple Crown winners? Or do we have to back much more than 100 years to see a smaller TB - with perhaps more Arab blood?
I’ve been wondering about something that pertains to bone density, particularly the use of ferosemide or other diuretics. Is it usual practice to suppliment accordingly to offset bone demineralization when these drugs are used?
Racehorses are examined daily, often more than once, by their trainers, their grooms, and occasionally their owners. They’re examined for soundness, for fitness, and for overall health. They’re examined by vets if any of the above people deem it necessary.
Preliminary necropsy info
Daily Racing Form Posted 5/6/2008, 5:25 pm
Heart failure or aneurysm ruled out, owner says
By GLENYE CAIN OAKFORD
LEXINGTON, Ky. - Preliminary results from the necropsy on Eight Belles showed that the filly did not have heart failure or an aneurysm before breaking down in Saturday’s Kentucky Derby, according to her owner, Rick Porter of Fox Hill Farms.
Eight Belles finished second behind Big Brown in the race but was euthanized after suffering condylar fractures in both front ankles as she galloped out.
Kentucky state stewards and state veterinarian Dr. Leif Nichols ordered the necropsy, the term for an autopsy performed on animals, and the procedure took place at the Livestock Disease Diagnostic Center in Lexington. Porter was unsure what day the necropsy took place.
A full report from the necropsy is expected to take at least two weeks. Eight Belles has been cremated, but Porter has not yet decided on an interment site.
“The initial report didn’t show anything other than what it appeared to be,” Porter said. "There was nothing with the heart or an aneurysm or anything like that. It came from the leg injuries.
“I know [trainer] Larry Jones wanted her tested for steroids, because he told me they were accusing him of using steroids because she was such a big filly, and I don’t know how that’s coming,” he added, referring to protests against Jones by animal-rights groups. “I’m sure the results will be negative.”
Porter noted that Eight Belles is by a large sire, the 17-hand Unbridled’s Song, and said that the 3-year-old filly was not on anything other than Lasix, also known by the trade name Salix, a diuretic that is commonly and legally used on the racetrack to reduce blood pressure in the lungs during exercise.
“As far as I’m concerned, I’ll be glad if they test her for anything,” Porter said. "I see the bills, and I know Larry Jones, and I know he’s not using anything that would be detrimental to the health of the horse. I know he puts the horse absolutely first. I see all the vet bills from Larry, and it’s rare that I see a vet bill of $100 a month on a horse. I’ve never gotten a bill for an injection in two years.
“I didn’t think we would find anything,” Porter said of the necropsy. “I don’t know what we can prove by it. I think it was just a tragic breakdown. . . . She was galloping out beautifully, absolutely normally, and then boom.”
:lol:
Not at all. I wish I didn’t have to add to the EightBelles Post Overload.
I tried to sort through that 22 page trainwreck, and could make no sense of it. I can’t sit here that long right now (with a horribly compromised hip joint), and try to find the good posts from that one, and I’m sure there were many that I missed. After the 1st seven pages I gave up.
BTW, thanks for the SI link.
findeight,
I would be hap-hap-happy to put that guy on a “big, strapping 17.1 hh”…5 or 6 yo horse. He seems like a great guy, and an excellent trainer, and I was rooting for him.
However, with a horse that big you are asking for trouble because physiologically, they develop slower than a, say, 15.2 horse.
Many people mistakenly think that because a horse is BIG, why, they should handle weight with ease!
NOT a 2 or 3 yo horse. They are less likely to handle it unscathed than their smaller counterparts. Perhaps the trainer didn’t know this.
Anyone remember how heavy Forego’s exercise rider was? When he was 2 and 3 years of age?
I just read this article of ESPN and even though it is by a sports writer it has many valid points.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3382235&sportCat=horse
I really believe that line-breeding has become a major problem for the TB horse industry.The racing gene pool is becoming so small and I personally think that this is why so many more breakdowns are happening today then ever before. Breeders need to get back to breeding not solely for speed but also for sturdiness and stamina.
This article goes into her pedigree and that her grandsire, Unbridled, all be it sires fast horse, he also has been known to sire brittle horses. Two of his breeding sons (Grindstone and Unbridled Song, Eight Belles sire) were retired due to leg injuries.
And yes, Big Brown has some horrible feet (I know all about quarter cracks having dealt with one the past two years with my low slung heeled warmblood) and just because he is big and fast will he really pass along the genes that the racing industry needs???
Anyway, RIP Eight Belles. If the Barbaro tragedy didn’t open enough eyes, I really think this one did so maybe there is some light at the end of this.
For the science nerds out there, a very interesting (and free) article on the response of bone to exercise:
The real response of bone to exercise
Alan Boyde
J Anat. 2003 August; 203(2): 173–189
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1571152
Laurierace and others, is there anything to this info from the SI.com article? If this comment is correct, is it unusual for a horse to be vocal during a race of this type?
“On Monday morning, Baffert said jockey Corey Nakatani, riding Colonel John, told him that when he passed Eight Belles on the turn, he heard the filly whinnying possibly in distress.”
I am almost positive that a vet cannot see stress fractures on an x-ray. Obviously an ultrasound wouldn’t tell much for bone. Other diagnostics, like an MRI, CT, bone scan, I think the horse needs to be heavily sedated for, maybe put on a table:confused:… I really don’t know for sure.
Can a vet answer these diagnostic questions?
I wonder which diagnostics could be used as a preventative for bone injury and how accurate they would be.
Thanks for the OP, I hope this thread stays on topic with facts and not opinions, it has been very informative so far.
[QUOTE=horselips;3191962]
Because I know there are some very smart race people on this board, and if I have to read one more omg!!!-im-so-sad-an-mi-dog-is-so-sad-2-n-mi-kid-is-cryin-hre-eyez-out!! post, I think I will just snap.
*slick this does NOT mean you. You are NOT a race-tracker, so please stay out of this thread. You are on my ignore, and know NOTHING about racehorses, so please slither back to the dressage forum. Thanks.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I can write one more unintelligent post just so you will snap…Then maybe we could have an INTELLIGENT thread on why exactly you did!!! Could it be that too many non-race-trackers posted on YOUR forum? That you just couldn’t handle the fact that people crossed over from other forums because they have an interest in what is going on in this one? Could it be that you just couldn’t handle the stress of having to not read a post you weren’t interested in? Maybe you are carrying to much weight? Hmmmm…
These forums are open to everyone and if you aren’t interested in a topic that is posted, here is a novel concept, don’t read it!!!
Just curious, is that a two way concept?
[QUOTE
I’ve only seen one double-legged injury in 25 years of racewatching (and that includes the nightly race recaps of the day’s races of multiple tracks), and that was a two-year-old who broke both knees rounding the final turn about 20 years ago in a cheap maiden claimer.
[/QUOTE]
I know of two other instances where two front legs were broken. Years ago at the QH race the All American Futurity a horse broke both front legs at the finish line. I thankfully was not there in person, but saw it on TV.
Then I saw an article several months ago about racetrack breakdowns on a track in Texas and they had a very gruesome photo of a horse “standing” on what was left of two broken front legs similar to the one of Eight Belles, only worse if that is possible. I don’t recall if that was a QH race or not, or at what point in the race it happened. Uncommon maybe, but maybe more common than people would like to think.
Wasn’t Phar Lap’s trainer doing the same thing way back when he was racing. From all the reports I read it was that grueling training regime that in part at least gave that horse the strength it did. Or am I wrong here?
A person I trust from a TB breeding list was about 20-30 feet from the breakdown when it happened. She wrote that the filly broke her right front first, went down and broke her left front when she attempted to get up the third time. The jockey was trying to keep her down and calling for help. He was also crying.
It’s a sad and heartbreaking thing. I feel for the people who took care of her every day. I’m sure there’s a huge hole in their hearts and I’m sure they’re asking themselves a lot of "what if? “what did?” questions.
The only turn I recall Colonel John passing Eight Belles on would be the first turn AFTER she broke down.
The only passing that occured during the race would be EB passing CJ, if she ever did pass him-I believe he was well back behind her most of the race and certainly from the far turn on to the wire.
So it may be true but only after the race, not whinnying in distress as she ran.
The radiographs are confidential. They would only be released with owner permission.
As you state, all medical history is PRIVATE. The public has no right to it, and in my opinion, demanding said information is pretty callous. This isn’t a witch hunt. It’s OBVIOUS what happened to this poor horse. She broke her legs. It was an unfortunate, freak accident. If she had been blowing out in a morning workout and not in front of millions of television viewers, there would have been a paragraph on her demise in the Thoroughbred news media and life would go on with nary a ripple.
Does racing have problems? Oh, absolutely. Is the racing world aware of them? Again, absolutely. Are things changing? Yes. For the better? For the most part, yes. But it’s an evolutionary process and there are mistakes made (i.e. Santa Anita’s synthetic track debacle - now corrected), and the results of some current changes won’t be evident for years. But it isn’t like the majority of the racing world is sitting around saying, “Oh shit. There goes another one. Too bad. Carry on.”
The racing world was just as horrified by Eight Belle’s breakdown as the rest of you. In fact, I would venture to say MORE horrified. Much more.
Regarding public opinion - I’m a long time racing fan. No, I will not stop watching horse racing. Because for every Ruffian - there is an Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed/Alydar. They are extraordinary animals and it is a riveting sport for those - like me - who watch from afar.
That said, I’m very saddened by Eight Belles. In my opinion - as a fan - is that for better or worse, Barbaro replaced Secretariat as the public face of racing. And I think horse racing was ‘given a pass’ or ‘forgiven’, so to speak, about Barbaro because of the extraordinary effort to save him. And I say that as someone who didn’t agree with those efforts.
So fast forward just a few years, and there is the high profile Derby breakdown of Eight Belles. Of course they - the general public - presume the worst of horse racing. Unlike diehard fans - that’s all they know. So maybe the maryterdom of Barbaro did more harm than good to their perception of horse racing.
And timing is everything - and this has come so close on the heels of the Rolex debacle. I wonder how much the negative press will ripple through and damage the industry - combined already with economic downturn and general pessimism in the country.
So I’m very curious about attendence and TV ratings of the remaining TC races. Will people really stay away? Or will they come in droves - looking for another trainwreck? It’s all very sad.
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