Well said, Mao. Thank you.
Speaking as a horse industry professional who is not part of the racing world, thank you for this thread, especially all the links to articles/studies. I am learning a lot.
I am somewhat amused by the title of this thread. Do you want an “intelligent” thread or one where others agree with you? I’m not asking to be snarky (honest) but because this is a topic where there are lots of legitimate points of view. I, for one, find it “unintelligent” to compare racing and eventing. But that’s just my opinion. I have also been taught that when anyone starts a conversation or thread with “lets have an intelligent conversation (or thread),” you don’t really even want to go there :lol:
Now if what you want is a discussion where people stick to facts and back up what they say with research, or at least differentiate between fact, assertion, theory and speculation. . . now, that’s a different story 
Re: releasing necropsy results
To answer an earlier question about whether the necropsy results will be made public …
As I read the statutes governing the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority, there is no requirement that the state disclose the results of any necropsy it orders on a horse. But if findings in the necropsy result in a full-scale investigation by the KHRA, that would seem to make releasing that information a lot more likely under the statutes.
The KHRA rules/regs are available online at
http://www.khra.ky.gov/rulesregs
Wording under Section 16, regarding veterinary forms, states: “The KHRA-2 form shall be confidential, and its content shall not be disclosed except in the course of an investigation of a possible violation of this administrative regulation or in a proceeding before the stewards or the Authority, or to the trainer or owner of record at the time of treatment.”
While that’s not specific to necropsies, the finding of anything untoward or illegal in the necropsy–which I doubt will happen in this case, incidentally–would open an investigation, and that would seem to throw public light onto related documents like the vet records and the necropsy results, too.
Of course, it appears that the filly’s owner is, at least so far, openly discussing the preliminary results, so he might be equally open with the full report regardless of whether the KHRA is.
Did they go over the track where the accident happened? Was there a hole, soft spot, or even just a dip that might have been the culprit?
Goodness knows that even a small hole, at a canter, can cause swelling in a leg. Happened to a young filly of mine in the pasture and yes, I went over and over that pasture before we used it. (New one) Plus, we did chiropractic for her back because when they compensate, other things happen. Likely, the first injury to Eight Belles, as described, caused the other as they get legs and joints in awkward positions to try and catch themselves on top of the now extra weight bearing. Not to say this filly didn’t have the breeding for a light underpinning.
As for the media, keep in mind that real journalism is no longer practiced in this country. It’s “Infotainment,” if you call tragedy entertainment. It’s little work for most of the “journalists,” they keep the story front and center because of the sensationalist aspects of it, and it has video. If that video didn’t exist you wouldn’t be seeing as much about it and they would have been dropping the story back, because every story has to have video nowdays. There is a reason its called “Faux News.” If it were real news, it would be presenting the facts that are known, not flogging and accusing people of things they didn’t do or giving air time to those who do.
If you think racing is in a sad state, the media is in far worse shape.
Boxing, an alleged sport, is truly brutal and inhumane, yet on it goes. Maybe the media should study the stats on deaths in boxing and people permanently brain damaged and ask the same questions they’re asking of racing.
If it bleeds, it leads.
It has been ever thus.
Castdorule, regarding this:
<<As for the media, keep in mind that real journalism is no longer practiced in this country.>>
<<If it were real news, it would be presenting the facts that are known, not flogging and accusing people of things they didn’t do or giving air time to those who do.>>
Just out of curiosity, which of the articles posted on this thread do you feel is “sensationalistic”? I agree with you that there is a LOT Of “lowest-common-denominator” stuff out there. But from the links posted here, and from other coverage I’ve seen, there certainly is some good, thoughtful reporting going on over this topic. The NY Times blogs on “The Rail” have had some good information, and so have the horse-industry trades, and a good number of general sports reporters also seem to be grappling with the issues–not making wild accusations or being sensationalistic.
Speaking of the NY Times, your comment along the lines of “why don’t they look at boxing” reminded me that one of the dark-side-of-sports pieces the Times did within the last couple of years was to examine the long-term effects of hits in football, and whether the players damaged by those hits over the time of their careers are now being adequately looked after (covered by insurance, for example). And there is a grand tradition of covering boxing problems that goes back years. Racing is in the spotlight now not only because of the highly public nature of these breakdowns but also because, unlike virtually all other sports, state governments have a substantial stake in and indeed oversee the conduct of racing–making racing a bit more of a public issue, in that it is state-regulated and the state also benefits from it.
I’m not saying all journalists are saints, not by any means! Quite a number are truly ignorant about the subjects they are entrusted to cover, and the papers do have to sell to stay in business. But I just hate seeing any group tarred with a single broad brush. There is some good work out there being done.
[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;3194657]
Boxing, an alleged sport, is truly brutal and inhumane, yet on it goes. Maybe the media should study the stats on deaths in boxing and people permanently brain damaged and ask the same questions they’re asking of racing.[/QUOTE]
If people, with free will, make the decision to punch the brains and life out of each other for money and sport then that is their choice.
When jockeys start riding other humans around the track, well the analogy may work. Otherwise, not comparable.
And fwiw, there have been exposes, studies etc. of boxing dangers. Crops up every time there is a high profile death or catastrophic injury.
In my area, the news is just riding on the sensationalism of this story. On this thread, more thoughtful stuff. The stories that allege jockey abuse and trainer abuse- or even hint at it…sorry, too many. Those are not the questions to be asking.
I should not have used such a broad brush. There are some thoughtful articles coming out now and I hope that those will prevail and that the media will let the owners, trainer and jockey alone in their grief. It will be interesting to see if there is any follow up in the general media- not just the equine interest media- on what is learned from this accident.
I think there is an analogy to racing and boxing. I haven’t been around any horse I could force to do something, any more than a boxer goes in the ring of his own volition.
Just on this forum, how many times have people told of acquiring an OTTB who just didn’t like racing? Sent a horse on to another career because it didn’t like jumping or dressage? That they don’t voice their opinion does not mean they don’t have one and don’t express it in other ways. Are trainers going to waste time on a horse that they have to force to the track every day?
I think there is far more hope for improvement in horse racing than in boxing.
Agreed, agreed, and agreed…on all points.
I am watching Neil Cavuto on FoxNews and he just interviewed the trainer and the owner. PETA makes me absolutely ill, with their accusations flying at everyone and everything. The PETA spokeswoman, besides blaming the jockey, was accusing the trainer of drugging the filly and the owner of funding horse abuse. She also said that everyone who tuned in to the race on TV or bets on horse racing is at fault. Who knew that paying $2 and having a paper ticket printed broke the filly’s legs? :rolleyes:
Something was brought up about joint injections and Mr. Jones said that probably two of his racehorses in the last 15 years had ever gotten joint injections. It really pissed me off that he was being questioned about something that is a routine procedure in many racing, show and performance barns.
[QUOTE=asb_own_me;3197911]
PETA makes me absolutely ill, with their accusations flying at everyone and everything. The PETA spokeswoman, besides blaming the jockey, was accusing the trainer of drugging the filly[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I guess Larry Jones has been accused of giving Eight Belles steroids because she was so tall. I wonder if anyone bothered looking up her sire to see that he is a tall horse.
It’s interesting that a group supposedly so concerned about the ethical treatment of animals doesn’t care if people get ethical treatment or not. :sigh:
Hi Y’all, I have been swamped with work and a sick child and lack of COTH access at work but at the request of the OP, I’ll chime in.
A few points, first, I am not an entirely impartial observer. I have met Larry Jones, seen him work, interviewed him and must say, I adore him. As both a man and a horseman he is first class! His wife Cindy is his primary assistant and she is a great lady and horsewoman. EB’s grrom Corey York also took care of Hard Spun last season. I’ve met and like Gabe Saez and Ruben Munoz, his agent. This group of people is a great hands on team who I respect a great deal.
I cannot fathom how upsetting this experience has been to the entire team. Larry Jones is hands on and as noted rides many of his horses including the last two Derby runners-up. He gallops them but doesn’t breeze them. (Breezing is the timed fast work.) I don’t think that his doing so contributed to Eight Belles death, not one bit. In fact bone density is supplemented by weight bearing. The filly’s injuries were freakish in their extemity and that one leg giving out led to the other doing so, when she wasn’t going that fast. As mentioned in a link article, as fatigue sets in so does the potential for harm. Many horses will get careless as they ease up and this filly didn’t have the best of gaits under the best circumstances. I might even wonder if she didn’t hit herself hard enough to start the chain reaction with the condylar fracture. (This is my conjecture not a vet’s!)
As for the furor over this sad event, I like other horsemen and women want to see all measures taken to assure the safety of the horses and by extension the humans involved. As a racing person, I understand the "circle the wagons’ mentality. I hate to see my sport bashed by those who don’t understand it and don’t care about it unless groups like PETA are raving about it. It’s only national news when something goes wrong. I feel like the air traffic control center who lands 10,000 flights a day for decades then has a crash. Where was the media when all those planes were landing safely?
I can see why racing doesn’t care to air its dirty laundry before the court of public opinion. Sadly, I think that breeders, in response to buyers (most breeders are commercial, they breed to sell, not race) are breeding a weaker product, on the whole. When most horses were bred with an eye toward the breeder eventaully using the horse in his own breeding program, they bred for toughness and soundness. The breeding for fashion and “page appeal” at the sales is harmful. Medication and steroids are harmful. Raceday meds like Lasix have allowed thousands of horses into the gene pool who decades ago wouldn’t have been there. Colts who need Lasix to get to the saddling paddock are winning watered down G1 races and thus earning the right to contribute (often mightily, with stallions covering over 200 mares a year!) to the gene pool. Decades ago horses with respiratory weakness wouldn’t have had such success on track and thus wouldn’t have been important sires, if at all.
As for steroids, there is no telling (and I don’t presume to know) what they could be doing to our horses. A sad irony for me is that Eight Belles (and all Larry Jones’ horses) run w/o steroids. In the week before the Derby Rick Dutrow (he’s a whole 'nother thread) was stating plainly in non less than the New York Times that all his horses get a shot of Winstrol on the 15th of every month. Now PETA is after Jones about steroids, when Dutrow is the one bragging and raising the Derby trophy.
As for responsibilty of Gabe Saez, I agree wholeheartedly with Larry Jones. The young man rode a great race. The Oaks was his first G1 win, he’s just run 2nd in the biggest race of his life only to watch the horse that got him there die on the track seconds later. He is part of a close knit group and Jones gave him a let up at Delaware on Monday. There was nothing he could do.
I have brought many people onto the backstretch over the years, as a guest. Some were horsey but not “racing” and others knew little of horses or racing. Oddly, most were shocked at how well cared for the horses are. The sight of grooms playing with their charges or hot walkers and riders cooing to them and spoiling them with treats, fussing over their equipment, stalls etc. was a surprise and I can’t see why. Sadly, racing has not gotten that story out. Maybe it’s because the owners with their fancy clothes or the trainers with their varied demeanors (brash Baffert, smooth Lukas etc) are easier to hone in on. Many grooms speak limited English and are less appealing to the camera.
I want to find way to get positive stories out there to at least balance what the mainstream sees as horseracing=evil, greedy people killing horses for sport.
[QUOTE=Linny;3198518]
Hi Y’all, I have been swamped with work and a sick child and lack of COTH access at work but at the request of the OP, I’ll chime in.
A few points, first, I am not an entirely impartial observer. I have met Larry Jones, seen him work, interviewed him and must say, I adore him. As both a man and a horseman he is first class! His wife Cindy is his primary assistant and she is a great lady and horsewoman. EB’s grrom Corey York also took care of Hard Spun last season. I’ve met and like Gabe Saez and Ruben Munoz, his agent. This group of people is a great hands on team who I respect a great deal.
I cannot fathom how upsetting this experience has been to the entire team. Larry Jones is hands on and as noted rides many of his horses including the last two Derby runners-up. He gallops them but doesn’t breeze them. (Breezing is the timed fast work.) I don’t think that his doing so contributed to Eight Belles death, not one bit. In fact bone density is supplemented by weight bearing. The filly’s injuries were freakish in their extemity and that one leg giving out led to the other doing so, when she wasn’t going that fast. As mentioned in a link article, as fatigue sets in so does the potential for harm. Many horses will get careless as they ease up and this filly didn’t have the best of gaits under the best circumstances. I might even wonder if she didn’t hit herself hard enough to start the chain reaction with the condylar fracture. (This is my conjecture not a vet’s!)
As for the furor over this sad event, I like other horsemen and women want to see all measures taken to assure the safety of the horses and by extension the humans involved. As a racing person, I understand the "circle the wagons’ mentality. I hate to see my sport bashed by those who don’t understand it and don’t care about it unless groups like PETA are raving about it. It’s only national news when something goes wrong. I feel like the air traffic control center who lands 10,000 flights a day for decades then has a crash. Where was the media when all those planes were landing safely?
I can see why racing doesn’t care to air its dirty laundry before the court of public opinion. Sadly, I think that breeders, in response to buyers (most breeders are commercial, they breed to sell, not race) are breeding a weaker product, on the whole. When most horses were bred with an eye toward the breeder eventaully using the horse in his own breeding program, they bred for toughness and soundness. The breeding for fashion and “page appeal” at the sales is harmful. Medication and steroids are harmful. Raceday meds like Lasix have allowed thousands of horses into the gene pool who decades ago wouldn’t have been there. Colts who need Lasix to get to the saddling paddock are winning watered down G1 races and thus earning the right to contribute (often mightily, with stallions covering over 200 mares a year!) to the gene pool. Decades ago horses with respiratory weakness wouldn’t have had such success on track and thus wouldn’t have been important sires, if at all.
As for steroids, there is no telling (and I don’t presume to know) what they could be doing to our horses. A sad irony for me is that Eight Belles (and all Larry Jones’ horses) run w/o steroids. In the week before the Derby Rick Dutrow (he’s a whole 'nother thread) was stating plainly in non less than the New York Times that all his horses get a shot of Winstrol on the 15th of every month. Now PETA is after Jones about steroids, when Dutrow is the one bragging and raising the Derby trophy.
As for responsibilty of Gabe Saez, I agree wholeheartedly with Larry Jones. The young man rode a great race. The Oaks was his first G1 win, he’s just run 2nd in the biggest race of his life only to watch the horse that got him there die on the track seconds later. He is part of a close knit group and Jones gave him a let up at Delaware on Monday. There was nothing he could do.
I have brought many people onto the backstretch over the years, as a guest. Some were horsey but not “racing” and others knew little of horses or racing. Oddly, most were shocked at how well cared for the horses are. The sight of grooms playing with their charges or hot walkers and riders cooing to them and spoiling them with treats, fussing over their equipment, stalls etc. was a surprise and I can’t see why. Sadly, racing has not gotten that story out. Maybe it’s because the owners with their fancy clothes or the trainers with their varied demeanors (brash Baffert, smooth Lukas etc) are easier to hone in on. Many grooms speak limited English and are less appealing to the camera.
I want to find way to get positive stories out there to at least balance what the mainstream sees as horseracing=evil, greedy people killing horses for sport.[/QUOTE]
Linny, you said it. I am so tired of everywhere I turn having to defend my favorite sport (my family has had racehorses in the past) It’s tough as a DVM, even small animal, but people are like “how can you support this horrible sport!!!? when you’re a vet!” I’m going to steal your airplane analogy.
I do think PeTA is full of baloney though. I mean, I remember years ago the president or prime minister or director was quoted as saying she “regretted having to kill defenseless vegetables in order to survive” and that she thought you could hear carrots scream when you “ripped their poor bodies out of the ground” so she wouldn’t eat them.
I mean, really folks.
I posted this on another site, I’ll re-post. My feelings about PETA.
The PETA faithful believe that pet/animal ownership is slavery. (Having owned animals, I know this to be true, except unlike PETA, I believe that the human is the slave!) They feel that the horses at tracks and riding stables and show horse barns should be FREED, I don’t know about you but I’m not sure how long Mr McGaughey’s or Mr Contessa’s stock would live on Hempstead Turnpike. I know that “my” boy wouldn’t survive long in the middle of a main road just west of Albany NY.
Humans have chosen over eons to domesticate certain animals that they felt could provide service to the them. The exchange between animal and human has been generally mutually beneficial. Dogs, horses, oxen, cats, pigs etc got shelter, food and at least basic care in exchange for guardianship, labor and a ready food source. PETA feels that total reversal of the course of human history is fine, and in fact preferable to the path taken thus far.
Height and Steroids
[QUOTE=ravenclaw;3197934]
Yeah, I guess Larry Jones has been accused of giving Eight Belles steroids because she was so tall. I wonder if anyone bothered looking up her sire to see that he is a tall horse.
It’s interesting that a group supposedly so concerned about the ethical treatment of animals doesn’t care if people get ethical treatment or not. :sigh:[/QUOTE]
I own (well, really, she owns me) a nice racehorse I bred who is 18.1 hands. Yep, 18.1. Did I use steroids? Nope. How did she get so big? Partly genetics and partly ‘who knows?’
Xena (TJC name is Grade A. Fancy) is by the correct and enormous Malibu Moon (by A.P. Indy who is by Seattle Slew whose nickname was ‘Baby Huey’ - Moon stands at Gainesway for $40,000.00 now) out of an over 16.2 hand mare named Alden’s Way, aka Doris. Doris is HUGE - tall and wide. She’s by John Alden and a lot of the Speak John line are tall horses with big bones (and, they are often seen in eventing).
Sooooo, you take Doris and cross her with Malibu Moon and poof! You have Xena. I didn’t race Xena until she was 4 years-old because of her size. I even had Paula Turner (the woman who broke Seattle Slew) come out to evaluate Xena when she was 3 years-old to see if she thought that Xena should maybe not race at all due to her size. Paula’s advice was that she’d make a good racehorse but I should wait until she turned 4…and that’s what I did.
For the record, Xena won a big Maiden Special Weight at Philly Park and went out to earn 2nds, 3rds, and fourths at the Allowance level. Her jockeys would joke that they were so high up they needed oxygen tanks.
Xena is now a hopeful broodmare, and someday if I can ride again she’ll be a hunt and show horse for me. She is a sweetie with a heart of gold.
But did I give her steroids? Perish the thought. She had hay, oats, and water along with nutritional supplements and lots of love. Sometimes TBs just get large - like how some people attain remarkable heights.
It is my understanding that Larry Jones (the trainer of Eight Belles) has requested bloodwork done from the necropsy to prove he didn’t use steroids. It truly bothers me that he and his team are guilty until proven innocent because a few wacko groups have taken information out of context. His team is suffering terrible sadness and are in mourning, but have to also deal with people calling them ‘murderers.’
The world has gone nuts.
Best,
Hallie I. McEvoy
Racing Dreams, LLC
I just started a great book on errors in health care, and they have a discussion about a safety analyst’s ideas- he talks about these kind of events being like a chisel, with a sharp end and blunt end.
People tend to focus on the sharp end ( in this case the jockey or trainer) and ignore the dull end, which would be how the entire industry behaves in such a way to bring about an adverse event. Change occurs when you focus on the dull end of the chisel, blaming is pretty much all that gets done if the sharp end is the focus.
I see PETA as focusing on the sharp end, and that is certaninly a valid point to bring up when you are talking to people who are questioning PETAs statements. Just because people say things that seem ignorant doesn’t mean they aren’t open to new ideas or aren’t interested in gaining knowledge. I am distressed by the death of Eight Belles, but also by the churlish behavior of some horsepeople in their approach to “outsiders.”
Two words
I have two words for you guys: Toe Grabs.
She was the only horse out there that I could tell with them on, and the surface was sealed. It wasn’t Larry Jones, or the jockey, or the whip, or her being too young, or her being a filly. I truly believe it was a combination of her shoes and the surface.
(Sorry, didn’t have time to read this whole thing and did a search and couldn’t find any reference in Racing in the past week on toe grabs, so thought I’d at least get people to talk about it or be aware of it.)
You may be right on about the toe grabs:yes: plus those spindly little legs with the long sloping pasterns prob did not help either.
Toe grabs are responsible for a lot of injuries and breakdowns IMO (especially since most of the ones I see are the real aggressive toe grabs). The California Horse Racing Board did the right thing banning them. This is just another example of something every racetrack could implement in 2 seconds, but they just ignore it and pretend like there’s no problem with toe grabs.
California banned toe grabs longer than 4 mm, but it’s a start. Wish others would follow. Not quite sure why anyone would use them with the research that’s been done.
