Can We Have An INTELLIGENT Thread On Eight Belles??

I have not seen in print anyone say that Eight Belles had toe grabs.

If you have, please by all means provide the URL link.

I’ve seen the objections to toe grabs in general and the data cited at Welfare and Safety of the Racehorse Summit in January. However that is a separate issue and like so many others that have been saddled onto the death of Eight Belles it seemingly doesn’t pertain to her.

Again if someone claims that Larry Jones instructed Eight Belles’ ferrier to have toe grabs I’d love to read it. However no such information that I can find - and I’ve hunted high and low - exists. In fact I read that Jones’ primary ferrier is proponent against grabs.

Toe Grabs

I’ll try to find a few of the articles, but all you have to do is open your May 10 Blood-Horse to page 2493. She does have inner rims on, too, but the toe grabs are longer than the rims.

I don’t know if she had toe grabs on or not, but if she did I wonder what Larry Jones would say about front grabs now. I’m not saying that’s why she broke down, but wondering if it does make Larry think about if that could have contributed in a small way.

The Answer is in the Genes

If you look at the pedigrees of Eight Belles, Barbaro, Chelokee, and other horses that have suffered these sudden catastrophic breakdowns, and then look at the pedigree of Ruffian, you will see all were heavily inbred/linebred on Native Dancer lines.

Chelokee, who suffered a leg injury the day before Eight Belles tragedy, was closely related to her, being inbred on the same Native Dancer lines. All the Kentucky Derby entrants were linebred or inbred on Native Dancer.

Native Dancer’s career was cut short by leg injuries, his descendants have shown the same fragile tendencies. (While producing brilliant racehorses, Native Dancer also has passed on soundness issues. Native Dancer himself retired early from leg injuries, although he still raced 22 times, 18 as a 2- and 3-year-old.) Native Dancer’s propensity for producing unsoundness is well documented.

Raise a Native, who was a very muscular chestnut, heavy on the front end, was an extremely brilliant but unsound racehorse who had won all four of his starts before he broke down in front with a bowed tendon and was retired to stud.

Native Dancer was endowed with the physique of a world’s-strongest-man competitor but unfortunately that imposing structure was perched on upright pasterns. Moreover, the mating with Raise You added the tied-in tendons of Case Ace’s maternal grandsire Ultimus to the conformational mix. Raise a Native’s best offspring were so brilliant, however, that the flaws hardly seemed to matter to breeders.

His career shortened by recurring ankle injuries, Mr. Prospector retired to stud in 1975 at Savin Farm near Ocala and made an immediate impact when his first crop of two-year-olds in 1978 included champion two-year-old filly It’s in the Air.

Even Big Brown, racing’s current celebrity, runs on hooves fortified with glue! He is not naturally sound. Take a look at the horses in Big Brown’s peidgree too. Bad feet isn’t the only issue in Big Brown’s genetic makeup. Horses in the last two or three generations of Big Brown’s pedigree are all lightly raced animals that eventually broke down and were retired.

Unbridled’s Song, the sire of Eight Belles, also had lower leg problems and actually retired from a stress fracture in the coffin bone (his SECOND stress fracture) after being plagued with hoof problems.

If you look at the pedigree of Ruffian, you see the same close linebreeding on Native Dancer.

Racehorses suffering catastrophic breakdowns are a far more common occurrence than most people realize, because the only ones that come to the attention of the general public, are those who have happened to break down at major events.

If you check the records here:
http://scrollsequus.blogspot.com/search/label/2008

You will probably be shocked at the number of horses that have suffered catastrophic breakdowns this year. That site also gives names and details of a multitude of horses that have broken down over the last few years. The list is not limited to 2 to 3 year olds either. Eight Belles unfortunatlly, has had plenty of company on her tragic journey from this world to the next.

Much of the problem is that racing is about speed, for that is what it takes to win. However, horses that don’t break down to the point of requiring euthanasia, but that are retired young due to problems and are in demand in breeding, continue to produce their own inherent unsoundnesses. Big Brown for example, is one I’ve read is likely to be retired after this season.

Naturally, Big Brown will be in demand as a stud because of his race record. However, he will pass on his foot problems and other genetic flaws of his bloodlines.

What is needed is selective breeding for soundness, but that would likely also mean breeding for less speed. It’s a tough situation because it pits speed, which is required to win races, against soundness which is for the betterment of the Thoroughbred breed as a whole. By balancing breeding for speed and breeding for soundness together, the ideal to strive for should be a thoroughbred that is fast, but is able to maintain natural soundness throughout most of the horse’s natural life.

Breeding only for speed, and using drugs and high tech fixes to try to compensate for soundness problems, will only result in more tragedies such as Ruffian, Eight Belles, George Washington, Barbaro, and so many more.

I haven’t been watching much TVG recently, but the last two times I watched I saw a horse breakdwon on Hollywood’s cushion track. The one on Saturday was in front by 3 lengths and broke down at the 1/16th pole. Waveland Avenue was his name I believe.

Other than the two times he raced in the US, where he ran on Lasix, what drugs did George Washington race on?

As to inbreeding to Native D, how do the numbers of linebred NDs who breakdown stack up against the number of linebred NDs who race a long time? If you can’t supply that then your research is beyond faulty.
Sure you can point to high profile breakdowns and see Native D linebreeding, but go over to this thread, specifically dedicated to old warriors with long racing careers, and almost every horse mentioned in that thread is closely linebred to Native D. So what does that tell us? Nothing, other than most horses, sound and unsound have plenty of Native D.

Now I’m not saying that horses that are linebred to ND are more or less susceptible to breakdowns, but that if someone is going to make pronouncments then they should have the decencey to supply some proper data other than just throwing out a few token names and going “see, see!”.
It’s as bad as what you see over of the sporthorse breeding forum where when people ask about TB lines in jumping/eventing etc people throw out the same old generic names that are found in every horse and go “my brother’s first cousin’s aunt’s brother had a horse that went preliminary and his great great grandfather was Buckpasser”, and surmising from that that any horse with B-passer 5 generations back is a on his way to the Olympics.

[QUOTE=TheCROW;3242957]
If you look at the pedigrees of Eight Belles, Barbaro, Chelokee, and other horses that have suffered these sudden catastrophic breakdowns, and then look at the pedigree of Ruffian, you will see all were heavily inbred/linebred on Native Dancer lines.

Chelokee, who suffered a leg injury the day before Eight Belles tragedy, was closely related to her, being inbred on the same Native Dancer lines. All the Kentucky Derby entrants were linebred or inbred on Native Dancer.

Native Dancer’s career was cut short by leg injuries, his descendants have shown the same fragile tendencies. (While producing brilliant racehorses, Native Dancer also has passed on soundness issues. Native Dancer himself retired early from leg injuries, although he still raced 22 times, 18 as a 2- and 3-year-old.) Native Dancer’s propensity for producing unsoundness is well documented.[/QUOTE]

I have a horse out of a Restless Native mare who looks exactly like Native Dancer. He broke his maiden in an allowence race at Saratoga and went on to run in hurdle races until he bowed. Of course I didn’t own him then. His owners/trainer stopped with him when it was clear he couldn’t come back without reinjuring that tendon. Now I foxhunt him. I often wonder about whether or not that bloodline should continue (in the perfect:confused:world). Other qualities make him an amazing creature to ride and and care for and it’s truly a privilege to own him. There is a brilliance in that line that’s hard to resist. I can see why it’s hard to walk away from that breeding.

Drumbiggle is correct. About 80% of modern TB’s have some ND and many have several crosses. Does this mean that 80% of TB’s are in dire peril?

Why is ND getting blamed, he was a pretty sound horse! You need to know how many horses are bred in a given way to even start to draw conclusions. ND wont show up in a pedigree any closer than 4 generations back today. In casting blame, you have to take into consideration all the other names in the pedigree.

[QUOTE=Linny;3244173]
Drumbiggle is correct. About 80% of modern TB’s have some ND and many have several crosses. Does this mean that 80% of TB’s are in dire peril?

Why is ND getting blamed, he was a pretty sound horse! You need to know how many horses are bred in a given way to even start to draw conclusions. ND wont show up in a pedigree any closer than 4 generations back today. In casting blame, you have to take into consideration all the other names in the pedigree.[/QUOTE]

Good point. And I don’t think most tbs are in dire peril. Considering what they tend to do and how they do it they’re incredibly sound athletes most of the time. I disagree with the ocean wave of voices who say the breed is fragile. And like any athlete, those who are most brilliant will push themselves to the edge; that’s part of the magic of thoroughbreds, imo.:cool:

Applying your logic, it seems to me that all 20 entrants in the Derby should have broken down. I guess it’s amazing that 19 finished in good health. :rolleyes:

And more than that, it’s really vague and unclear to say a line is “unsound” and leave it at that. Unsound how? Tendons? Knees? Wind? Feet?

Then the inquiry should shift to what’s causing the problem. I believe that many injuries are related to conformational issues, some to irregularities in the racing surface and some are luck driven–the proverbial bad step.

Different sire lines are known for conformational defects but even then I think we have to keep our inquiry in context. In my experience, the deviations that reputable TB breeders consider problematic especially in the front end wouldn’t faze folks in other disciplines. In fact, some of the issues may not even be recognized by people in other disciplines as a problem especially when it comes to fairly subtle deviations of the knee. But most horses in most disciplines don’t have to deal with the forces involved in racing and the tolerances consequently have to be pretty low. It’s kind of like the difference between a racecar and the family Ford. If you could magically put an engine capable of 200 MPH in a factory produced car, it would probably fly apart at the seams in the first training run but the same car is perfectly capable of 10 years of low speed commutes.

Interesting and thanks so much for posting the report. I had wanted to post a thread asking what folks thought had happened but didn’t, thinking it would turn into a train wreck or another idiotic and pointless slaughter thread.

Thanks for the intelligent and well thought posts!!

Sometimes it just happens

As much as society loves to place blame, we are better off if we sometimes say things just happen. I own and train a Thoroughbred racehorse. I started out at Ellis Park in Kentucky when Larry and Cindy Jones were stabled there. I knew them to the extent of exchanging hellos and small talk in the track kitchen or the shedrow on occassion. However, we do share several mutual friends. I have NEVER heard or witnessed 1 negative thing about either of them regarding the care they take of their horses. Unlike a lot of the leading “trainers”, Larry is very hands-on with his horses. And yes, he actually TOUCHES them unlike many of his counterparts. I have always heard so much about his abilities as a horseman, not just a trainer - which anyone could be. Racing is a dangerous sport for both humans (jockeys) and horses. Sometimes there are ways to minimize the dangers, but sometimes no matter how diligent one is, accidents do happen. I, personally, believe horses should not be raced until at least the age of 3. They’re just babies. Unfortunately, I don’t make the rules. I have the luxury of owning and training my own horse. Therefore, I make my own decisions. Most trainers do not have that privilege. As tragic as the death of Eight Belles is, horses of all breeds and disciplines die as the result of freak accidents. They just don’t do it on national television with millions of people watching.:sigh:

I feel that this was a fluke that could happen to any horse. there are risks in the racing industry, and that is something we have to face when the time comes. Its a sad reality. I saw it happen and was very sad, but i think what needs to be taken from this is how can we learn from it and is there anything we can do to prevent injuries like this from happening.

Also, as someone who admitently knows nothing about the industry or racing rules, are race horses allowed to wear some sort of polo or tendon wrap or something? Would this only hinder them at their fast speeds? Im just curious.

Most trainers wrap the front, back, or all legs with Vet-wrap. Sometimes, for added support, you can put a few wraps around the leg, run 4 or 5 strips of duct tape up the back of the tendon, then finish wrapping the leg. Helps give a little added support and no worry about interfering with running like boots or polos might do.

Horses usually run in vet wrap. I’m not sure if polo’s are forbidden, but if the jock came down and saw polo’s on the horse, he’d go right back to the jock’s room. I claimed a horse from a guy once who asked for his bandages back. They weren’t the trace bandages, but something close, maybe they were just ace bandages, I don’t remember.

I am sorry that this happened but they shouldn’t be trying to blame somebody for what happened. Especially the jockey. if that horse wanted to run, which she more than likely did, she would be a handful to stop or slow down. I mean, look at Ruffian and Barbaro. They both tryied to keep running after they broke their legs. Eight Belles is not different. She might have felt something but the adrenaline would have more than likely masked it.

I think they are stupid for trying to balme somebody for what happened to her. It was one of those freak things that rarely happens. And they are trying to put blame on the owner and trainer to. I think its just wrong what they are doing. (they meaning PETA and others agreeing with PETA)