Can we make shows better for horses?

[Xanthoria]

I thought this article was interesting. It’s a response to a video of Karl Cook showing his GP mare Kalinka van’t Zorgvleit having what looks like a very stressful time at a prize-giving, with her rider up and two handlers trying to lead her into the ring while Karl talks about how terrifying she can be.

A lot of the language we use around behavior like this tries to normalize this type of behavior, and even blame the horse’s “personality” for being “opinionated” about these things, and showing behaviors we’re uncomfortable with but try to suppress with short term cover ups like nose chains, multiple handlers etc.

Equine behavior specialist Renate Larssen says:

“in Europe, it is being discussed a bit whether that’s even something (mounted prize givings) we should do on horseback anymore because it is a different environment to competitions.”

“I think we need to stop seeing this kind of behavior that Kalinka was exhibiting in the video as some sort of character flaw because it’s not. She’s just responding. … What I’m seeing is a horse that is trying to cope and to an extent failing to cope…”

She goes on to talk about how trigger stacking, how horses look to other horses, not humans, for support, how to reduce the stress level, and I thought it was all very insightful. And I think this applies to the entire show - not just prize givings.

[Pokerface]

I personally found his flippant tone quite arrogant and off putting. If your horse is that “opinionated” maybe you should stop and consider her opinion?

When I read the headline, the first thing that popped into my head was “beats me, my horse LOVES horse shows!” . He enjoys a party. That said, my horse is a very green hunter, he loves his job, and yeah, probably the jumper ring would overwhelm him if I just threw him in there with no prep (I’m looking at the specific settings Kalinka was reacting to, not the jumper ring itself). I think most horses can/should be able to reasonably deal with some chaos in the show environment assuming that they have been adequately introduced to it, are allowed to grow their confidence in and out of the show setting, and they feel safe with their people. This mare does not seem like she feels safe in her environment, and no matter how you cut it, it’s not great for her. Maybe Karl and his team can “handle” her, but its like dragging a screaming toddler through a department store. No one is really doing great in that situation.

How to make a show more horse friendly? Aside from better facilities, you’d really have to change a lot of mindsets about what a horse can and should have to deal with. That a big task.

[Scribbler]

Hmm. One thing I love seeing in Grand Prix jumpers is the horse finishes the round, then walks out of the arena on a loose rein. With a proud but relaxed look. A horse should be able to walk back into the ring to get a prize. I don’t know the details here though.

[silver_charm]

I thought there were already people who didn’t go in mounted and/or rode other horses for prize ceremonies. Uceko was even banned from them at Spruce Meadows iirc. Do they have to get permission for that? I don’t understand why he keeps forcing her into that situation. (Honestly after hearing about her injury I think it’s a testament to her brain that he can even get her in a ring at all.)

[Xanthoria]

The article mentions the difference between a competition round and a prize giving, how music and crowd noise can be greater, and how the horse may not have had a chance to decompress between the two and trigger stacking can result in this type of overwhelm. It kinda makes sense.

[vxf111]

Why not just skip the mounted prize giving? This seems like a no brainer if your horse has that much of an issue going in for it?

[pony_grandma]

I remember my first trip to a rural country horse club show, mainly for contesting - station wagon tailgates and truck beds backed to the arena sides full of families and all age kids. The concession stand with loud chatty lines for homemade food and pies. Dogs running loose.

Mares with a baby still on their side with a kid holding it waiting at the out gate. Those horses would go in the ring do their job, run top speed to the finish timer, then flat foot walk out of the ring with someone handing the rider, jumping down, a cold beer while someone else tossed a kid up in the saddle to walk it out.

Maybe a horse needs to learn a reward and have more time being a horse.

Everyone I knew took young ones on every travel - even out on trails all day. They learned what was normal and it wasn’t such a big deal.

[MK1880]

@vxf111

Why not just skip the mounted prize giving? This seems like a no brainer if your horse has that much of an issue going in for it?

I bet he will in the future. I think he’s pretty new to winning at this level, so maybe this was the first victory gallop for this horse and he just had no idea how she’d react. McLain had one (Rothchild?) that he swapped out for victory gallops, but he had to learn that somehow. Maybe no one was around to video him that first time so he didn’t have to deal with this kind of backlash.

Has anyone seen an FEI jog? There’s a reason many are holding on to lunge lines instead of lead ropes.

I doubt a chronically stressed out horse is going to be able to consistently perform well at this level (or any level probably), so I really don’t see the need to be as judgy as some on social media have been in response to a couple 15 second video clips slapped together by some random person.

[vxf111]

In the video he referenced a prior bad experience and having two people ready to lead the horse in. I dunno… if the mare jumps around when it counts and doesn’t want to go in for ribbons it doesn’t seem like a stretch to just not go in for ribbons?! It seems like an easy solution and means that a revision in how we run horse shows wouldn’t be necessary if people would just use some common sense.

[Night_Flight]

@vxf111

if the mare jumps around when it counts and doesn’t want to go in for ribbons it doesn’t seem like a stretch to just not go in for ribbons?!

Some shows, particularly if sponsors are present, require the riders to ride in for ribbons.

I’ve never seen a requirement that it be the same horse that competed, though (in my grooming days, we would either use another horse from within our barn for the prize-giving, or the rider would borrow a horse from another competitor who ended up out of the ribbons).

Has he explained why he didn’t substitute another horse?

[MK1880]

@vxf111

In the video he referenced a prior bad experience and having two people ready to lead the horse in. I dunno… if the mare jumps around when it counts and doesn’t want to go in for ribbons it doesn’t seem like a stretch to just not go in for ribbons?! It seems like an easy solution and means that revision how we run horse shows wouldn’t be necessary if people would just use some common sense.

Thanks - I missed the reference to a prior bad experience. I totally agree that the no-brainer approach would be to avoid the after-class fan fare. I think that’s what most riders do under these circumstances.

[Bending_Line]

Based in title, I was hoping this might be a broader discussion of more on site turn out, grass for hand grazing, hacking trails, limiting multi week shows, etc. I worry that horse shows are not that great for horses.

[Texarkana]

So this is going to turn into a discussion about the video, right?

I just saw the video and subsequent interview with the equine behavoralist today. Timely thread.

I think the mare in question (Kalinka) and making horse shows more horse-friendly are two separate topics. That mare shows some extreme stress reactions.

The only parts of pinning, awards, etc. that I feel are particularly stressful are the standing still and the ribbons themselves being stuck on the horse. Entering the ring shouldn’t be an issue. Applause shouldn’t be an issue for a performance horse.

I agree that for the mare in question, it’s a no brainer to let her skip it.

[MHM]

@Night_Flight

@vxf111

if the mare jumps around when it counts and doesn’t want to go in for ribbons it doesn’t seem like a stretch to just not go in for ribbons?!

Some shows, particularly if sponsors are present, require the riders to ride in for ribbons.

I’ve never seen a requirement that it be the same horse that competed, though (in my grooming days, we would either use another horse from within our barn for the prize-giving, or the rider would borrow a horse from another competitor who ended up out of the ribbons).

Has he explained why he didn’t substitute another horse?

I’ve also seen people swap horses for the awards presentation.

I believe they even keep a few spare horses on hand at Spruce Meadows specifically for that purpose.

[eclipse]

@silver_charm

I thought there were already people who didn’t go in mounted and/or rode other horses for prize ceremonies. Uceko was even banned from them at Spruce Meadows iirc. Do they have to get permission for that? I don’t understand why he keeps forcing her into that situation. (Honestly after hearing about her injury I think it’s a testament to her brain that he can even get her in a ring at all.)

You can definitely ride a different horse at Spruce Meadows for presentations (I have)! Their rule is “you must be mounted on a horse suitable”……most people will either ride a different horse or get someone else to ride for them!

[eclipse]

@MHM

@Night_Flight

@vxf111

if the mare jumps around when it counts and doesn’t want to go in for ribbons it doesn’t seem like a stretch to just not go in for ribbons?!

Some shows, particularly if sponsors are present, require the riders to ride in for ribbons.

I’ve never seen a requirement that it be the same horse that competed, though (in my grooming days, we would either use another horse from within our barn for the prize-giving, or the rider would borrow a horse from another competitor who ended up out of the ribbons).

Has he explained why he didn’t substitute another horse?

I’ve also seen people swap horses for the awards presentation.

I believe they even keep a few spare horses on hand at Spruce Meadows specifically for that purpose.

At the big summer shows, in the big classes, they definitely have horses that they will loan the GP riders for presentations! For example, Beezie has done this a few times over the years

[PNWjumper]

I’ve had several who absolutely could not handle a ribbon presentation and/or victory gallop.

My OTTB is an absolute lunatic about it. 100% happy to finish a big GP and walk out (or even around for a minute after) on the buckle. And happy to hang out outside of the ring. But put him in a line of horses and make him stand while they put ribbons on and shake hands? He’s a mess by the time we get to the gallop. I used to joke that he never broke a sweat through the biggest and hardest of grand prixes. But he walked out of every victory gallop he every did a complete lathery mess. I didn’t (and still don’t) have the groom/helper resources to swap out a horse between the class and the ribbon presentation, so wasn’t ever able to swap the horse out.

But how else would you ever teach a horse to be ok with a ribbon presentation if you don’t do it with them periodically? It’s not like you can replicate the energy in the ring for something like that.

[vxf111]

It’s common to ride in for ribbons on another horse if your pinning horse can’t handle it. This is all… nothing new and he’s been a pro for ages. This really seems like an instance of bad judgment (which we can all be guilty of from time to time) and not a reason to revise the rules or castigate KC. It just seems like he probably should not ride her in for ribbons in the future if it’s going to be an issue.
Easy solution.

[BLBGP]

He posted a series of photos a year or so ago, maybe from Vegas? She went up to pretty darn near vertical with him during the awards, so high that his stirrup slipped off the saddle and he slid off. Then she accidentally stepped on him and ripped his pants.

I’m surprised he doesn’t ride another horse for awards presentations. Maybe now?

[StormyDay]

So, a little off topic, but I do have to say some of the things talked about in the article rubbed me the wrong way. The part about forcing horses to jump, specifically.

“I think force could be defined as not giving the horse any other option. Show jumping is definitely 100% a trained behavior. No horse is going in a natural state to say, I’m going to jump 1.60 meter fence and I’m going to jump ten of them in a row. That doesn’t happen. Which means that is a trained behavior. It’s something that we need to train them to do.

We use pressure and release in traditional horse training and pressure is by definition, some sort of mental or physical force. It doesn’t have to be violence, but definitely it has to be enough to make the horse say, okay, I’d rather not have this in my life right now, so I’m going to go and jump instead. But in most horses, there’s going to come a moment where you smack them with the whip because they refuse or they try to run out. These are evasive or avoidance behaviors. So, the underlying emotion is fear. When we then smack them with the whip, what we’re essentially doing is we’re making them more afraid of what’s going to be the consequences of stopping than the consequences of jumping. So I do think that we use force to get horses to jump. Do horses hate it? Are all horses traumatized when they’re jumping? Do some horses enjoy it? I don’t know. There’s no catch all answer to that.”

I have a mini mule. Because she’s like 10 hands tall she’s never been taught to jump. If I stick her in the arena, she will purposely run and jump the jumps in there; she just loves it. No one has forced her to do anything.

I’ve worked with a LOT of green horses. I’ve taught a lot of horses how to jump. I would say, in that time, I’ve used the whip exactly zero times when teaching a horse how to jump. Fear is never, ever the emotion I want my horses to have when jumping. The answer to go over is because it’s fun to go over. Every once in a while I meet a horse that says, ‘no thanks, I’d rather have all my feet on the ground’ and that horse goes to dressage land.

Back to horses jumping just because. I have video of Stormy jumping a small jump I set up in his field. No one was around to ask for it. He just thought it was fun. Has this person never had a horse go through a jump chute, gallop around the arena, and do it again, when the humans are all like ‘ok, stop now, it’s not your turn anymore’? Have they never felt that feeling when a horse gets SO EXCITED because they are going to jump?

Jumping is definitely a trained behavior, but that doesn’t mean it’s a fear based behavior.

Ok, rant over.