Genuine question.
Does this guy have customers that he trains? Has he ever taught anyone?
I know he’s had some success in the ring himself.
my mare would jump around the jumps if turned out in the ring, her daughters will too and I have come home to find my gelding jumping in and out of his paddock just because he can. I am all for kindness and treating your animals well but so many “behaviouralists” are too quick to claim that every thing we do with horses is achieved by forcing them and that it is stressful and abusive to the horse.
8 Likes
I agree with Texarkana that the title and the video are two different (and valid and intriguing topics).
Per the title - I think we certainly can make shows better for the horses at least on a rated level (difficult to impose much of any kind of wide sweeping rules at non rated shows). A limitation on classes/ divisions, a requirement for the facility to have X number of “turnout” (round pens) per Y number of stalls, larger show stalls, mats or at least non concrete stalls, quiet hours in the barns (lights and music off for horses to lay down and sleep), stalls that have the option for windows/ grills between them so horses from the same barn can interact/ touch noses, stewards to do “wellness checks” to ensure horses have adequate water/ hay/ shavings, rules and stewards to enforce them surround tack (specifically noseband tightness and bits) for all 3 rings, designated hand grazing areas (many facilities in my area have space for this already), lunging time limits and pads with decent footing that isn’t rock hard, jog ups/ soundness evals at the beginning of each week, I could probably keep going on. I think there is a lot that could be done but when you get more into the details, will likely never happen due to the costs involved for parties that won’t benefit (USEF, USHJA, show facilities). I think there’s a lot that can be done on the individual level that isn’t being done for the majority of horses (well fitting tack, sympathetic training and show schedules, hand walking/ grazing, ensuring they have adequate (deep) bedding, free choice hay, plenty of breaks (throughout the season, during the week, during the day), etc). This is not to say most horses are treated poorly at shows, just that IMO many owners/ riders are hands off and arrive to show and leave while the horse stands in the stall with no hay.
For Kalinka - I agree that the obvious choice is to not take her in for prize giving. However, I do think there is something worth digging into deeper when a rider of his level self admits he is terrified to ride her in an interview. Maybe he was being overdramatic, but if he is falling off regularly as he said I could understand being scared. There are no details in the video or interview about his falls but it does sound to be a semi regular occurrence and that alone would make me want to investigate more into the horse and rider as a pair. Maybe they don’t get on as well as they should, or don’t “click” or communicate well. Or potentially there is something going on with the horse, stress, pain or other.
5 Likes
I don’t know that he has lesson / training clients. I know he has done the Noelle Floyd masterclass thing and has other online tutorial/ course things. I’ve seen a rider get a one off lesson from him but I don’t think his business (barn) model is one with many (or any) training clients. Why does that matter?
1 Like
Just curious.
He’s put out videos in the past on different subjects that sounded a bit pie in the sky to me.
5 Likes
I did a couple of local Competitive Trail Rides a few years ago and those events really struck me: how vets are inspecting soundness and wellness throughout the day and competitors are prioritizing their horses condition with emphasis on hydration. It was like Bizarro of wait-all-day hunter shows and ‘is this horse sound?’ dressage. Any movement towards the CTR model would improve horse welfare immensely.
4 Likes
Many, many big riders will ride a different horse for prize giving. Ribbons flapping, people clapping, and everyone galloping around on a relatively loose rein is something we can’t really practice, and some horses are “better” at it than others.
Karen Polle has to get special permission to have With Wings led into the ring and have someone give her a leg up. He’s a phenomenal athlete who has his quirks. Many of the top TOP jumpers do.
No customers or students (to my knowledge). I am no fan of KC whatsoever, but he’s had more than his fair share of success in respectable classes at top venues.
He’s a billionaire with a string of horses that can jump 1.50+, so I think it’s silly anyone is making the argument (generally speaking) that this horse is in some sort of pain. He has top vets available and top notch facilities.
Again, no fan of his, but it’s not like it’s his only horse and he can’t afford to have it properly taken care of it and is just jumping around for notoriety. And there’s a LOT of those out there.
3 Likes
Not to single you out, as I’ve seen the same argument made countless times by others but the whole “he has money and other horses so obvs this one isn’t in any pain” argument bugs me. I am not saying this horse (or even any of his horses as this is an argument often applied to many different high level riders) is certainly in pain but to rule out pain based on wealth of the owner/ rider or the number of horses in their string is not a valid argument. “Pain” is a very wide encompassing term. Pain = \ = lameness 100% of the time. Pain could be muscles are a bit sore from jumping 1.60 tracks 4 out of the past 6 weeks. Or could be tummy is a bit upset from getting a bale that was slightly different than what they had before. Or it could be they slept wrong. Or took a weird step and tweaked something. No amount of wealth guarantees no pain 100% of the time.
I don’t think in this case, or even in most cases, that people are knowingly, willfully riding horses through pain. I think, as the article gets at, that we (g) have mis categorized pain or stress signals as being “opinionated” “sassy” “just a mare” and that the behavior has been normalized and people don’t recognize the small signs that the horse is in a smaller/ lower level of discomfort (vs the more obvious signs like limping, rearing, etc).
17 Likes
THIS ^^^^^^^
Quoting because it’s worth posting twice. They don’t do these behaviors “to be bad” or “because they want to.” They do it as a reaction to something. Physical pain, emotional distress/discomfort, trigger stacking, a combination of all of those things.
They’re telling us that something is wrong, and it’s our job to listen, REALLY listen, instead of writing them off as “spicy” or “mareish” or “OTTB” or “bratty.”
15 Likes
And why must everything be assumed to be caused by physical pain? Mental health is relevant in horses as well as people.
7 Likes
This is very true. In the winter, we free lunge in the indoor a lot and I’d say 90% of our horses will randomly jump a jump or two without much prompting. I have to say I was pretty pleased yesterday when the new 4-year-old OTTB decided to take himself through a grid on his own accord. 
I do think that a lot of them would probably rather be outside eating hay and napping in the sunshine and have been conditioned to like their jobs, but there are also plenty that simply need a job for sanity’s sake. Kalinka may not like prize-giving, but that doesn’t mean she hates horse showing or jumping or anything of the like.
11 Likes
Breed horses with a better temperament and be a better horse keeper/trainer/rider. What is needed is to make better horses for shows.
3 Likes
Michael Jung’s Sam, with whom Jung had a wonderful partnership, hated prize-giving ceremonies and Jung swapped out for another horse whenever possible.
I don’t see having this issue as a kind of final determination of whether a horse is being treated fairly. I think the simplest solution is just to use a different horse. Did Karl’s sponsors demand it or was it his choice?
Kalinka injured her shoulder in a warmup crash. I do think the chaotic warmup rings at every level are something h/j shows need to reevaluate, not just make cute jokes about.
I think way too many assumptions were made about the horse based on a short video. I really couldn’t say one way or another if she should be swapped out for a less stressful career. It’s not like abusive bits or overuse of the whip that’s a much more clear welfare issue. The behaviorist noted the mare had a pretty sympathetic setup in the ring.
5 Likes
It’s okay.
But this is supposed regular behavior for this horse, from what it sounds like from KC. So I think my point kind of stands…if this were the first time she behaved like this and he was surprised, then yes what you said makes sense. But if this is ongoing, don’t we suppose the guy with billions and other horses would figure it out? It kind of sounds like he already has?
I have a red headed mare from a notorious line of breeding. Both grandsires are Olympic jumpers. My horse is quirky, but I’d also trust her with a kiddo who
Knows how to sit on a horse and steer to jumps. Her sclera is showing most of the time and she looks worried or freaked out, but so do most of her siblings/relatives. I can spot one a mile away at shows. 
3 Likes
Re: force. I’ve definitely had a horse or two who would loose jump for fun, but we have to recognize their motivations are different than ours.
A horse who jumps out of one pasture into another is motivated by food or company usually. A horse who jumps a couple small jumps loose in an arena is having fun. But if you turned out a horse in an arena full of 1.60m jumps do they go around and jump all the jumps? Do horses whose riders fall off keep jumping? That’s so rare that the one or maybe two times you see a video of it it’s something people get excited about - normally the horse just runs around until it’s caught.
So yeah - horses can jump. Some may even enjoy loose jumping. But would they do a whole course of large and challenging jumps on their own for fun? Not really. Which means we condition them to accept that they must do it when we ask.
Would I call that force? No because it implies sustained and aggressive motivation. But you can see where the behavioralist is going with this - if it’s not done of their own free will then what is it?
Worth contemplating and discussing, I think.
14 Likes
That’s the issue, he (and many many others at the top) normalize this and have been doing so for a long time, so they’re quick to write it off as “oh well she’s just quirky and dangerous, that’s just how she is, oh well she wins classes” without ever stopping to really think, “WHY is she behaving this way?” So it’s never thoroughly investigated in terms of emotional distress/stress/anxiety/being over threshold/physical issues.
I’ve had people say this about my own horse, oh he’s just spicy because it’s winter time, oh he’s an OTTB so he’s just hot. False, he had underlying physical issues and once I got those sorted out, all of his “behavioral” issues magically went away. But if someone watched him go, he looked perfectly sound before, but something was still wrong. It manifested as emotional/mental stress.
And this is little me doing the .80m/BN
9 Likes
The modern horse serves no purpose except to please us in some way (including the meat market). Unless we make better decisions for their breeding and wellbeing, we will be legislated out of horses.
2 Likes
