Can you judge while you are suspended (RE: Shane George) ?

[HiddenAcres]

Or does this apply?:

No suspended person will be permitted on competition grounds from the time participants are admitted on the competition grounds until their departure. For example, suspended individuals may not be on Competition grounds during schooling or other such days prior to the start of the Competition for any purpose, including such things as: coaching riders, training or schooling horses or trailering horses on or off Competition grounds.

US Equestrian

Rules gurus, what’s the real purpose of suspensions? What’s the difference between a censure (re: Torano) and a suspension?

The drugging things don’t embarass anyone anymore, and the clients don’t leave. Sportsmanship does not seem to enter the equation. Is it just that no-one respects the USEF?

The whole thing is confusing.

[Zuri]

It is interesting that the suspension starts next year from April1, 2015 to May 31, 2015 for a 2013 violation. So if he is judging this year, I guess it is permitted?

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=Zuri;7672102]
It is interesting that the suspension starts next year from April1, 2015 to May 31, 2015 for a 2013 violation. So if he is judging this year, I guess it is permitted?[/QUOTE]

The suspension generally covers the same time of year that the original infraction occurred in. Yes he can judge except during the actual suspension period.

[Zuri]

[QUOTE=HiddenAcres;7672099]

Rules gurus, what’s the real purpose of suspensions? What’s the difference between a censure (re: Torano) and a suspension?

The drugging things don’t embarass anyone anymore, and the clients don’t leave. Sportsmanship does not seem to enter the equation. Is it just that no-one respects the USEF?

The whole thing is confusing.[/QUOTE]

Respectfully snipped by me (RSBM)

I would think it is embarrassing to most, but I agree that clients don’t seem to leave for some reason. Why has it become a “win at all costs” mentality? It seems like those that do cheat feel they have to do so to keep clients happy? I just don’t get it. Risk vs. reward is a worth it?

My show hunter has inflammatory bowel syndrome and colicks at the drop of a hat. He is now on a small dose of prednisolone which has made a world of difference. I had no idea that it was a banned substance under USEF rules. It truly never occurred to me that others might use it as a performance enhancer.

I discovered it was a banned substance and called the USEF to see if there was an exception for horses that needed it for a medical condition. There was not. So my show hunter does not show any more. I would never want to put my trainer or other boarders in the predicament of being set down. How selfish would that be?

[Ammy_Owner]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t his suspension for cocaine? What therapeutic benefit does cocaine have to horses?

[HiddenAcres]

Zuri - you are demonstrating good sportsmanship and good horsemanship. Thank you.

[HiddenAcres]

Ammy - I don’t know but on these boards I have read that it can give them “brilliance” and also that it can exhaust them on the way down, giving them that canter very calmly thing. Kind of contradictory, so I have no idea. Why isn’t he arrested for having an illegal substance? Don’t get this at all.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=Ammy Owner;7672345]
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t his suspension for cocaine? What therapeutic benefit does cocaine have to horses?[/QUOTE]

Theory is it’s used as a upper, not a downer. No doubt it came off a $20 in the grooms pocket:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Nickelodian]

[QUOTE=HiddenAcres;7672099]
Or does this apply?:

No suspended person will be permitted on competition grounds from the time participants are admitted on the competition grounds until their departure. For example, suspended individuals may not be on Competition grounds during schooling or other such days prior to the start of the Competition for any purpose, including such things as: coaching riders, training or schooling horses or trailering horses on or off Competition grounds.

https://www.usef.org/documents/rules/HearingCommittee/2014/JuneRulings.pdf

Rules gurus, what’s the real purpose of suspensions? What’s the difference between a censure (re: Torano) and a suspension?

The drugging things don’t embarass anyone anymore, and the clients don’t leave. Sportsmanship does not seem to enter the equation. Is it just that no-one respects the USEF?

The whole thing is confusing.[/QUOTE]

FWIW it’s not necessarily drugs that set people down. There are all sorts of rules infractions that can cause this. I don’t know the details of Shane’s suspension.

[inca]

https://www.usef.org/documents/rules/HearingCommittee/2014/JuneRulings.pdf

Shane George definitely got sat down for illegal substances (drugging.) He won’t be able to judge during his 2 month suspension (4/1/2015-5/31/2015.)

I have always found it strange that the suspensions are in the future and in the meantime, the suspended person can go merrily about their business training, showing and judging. I understand that they want the person NOT to be able to show at the same show they were caught breaking the rules. But, just seems odd that he can carry on for 9 months before suffering any punishment. (and really it is for 2 years but 9 months since the ruling.) How about a 2 month suspension starting immediately AND you can’t go back to that particular show the next year.

[BAC]

[QUOTE=HiddenAcres;7672431]
Zuri - you are demonstrating good sportsmanship and good horsemanship. Thank you.[/QUOTE]

I agree, the H/J disciplines need more people like you instead of those horrible clients who only care about winning at any cost. It seems to me that an exception in a case such as yours would be reasonable, but I guess they do not want to make any exceptions for legitimate reasons. I don’t understand the point of suspending someone far into the future, it should be immediate. Making the suspension valid the following year, at the same venue, is stupid, if they cheat at one show they most likely cheat at all of them.

[IPEsq]

Zuri, it is too bad there isn’t some sort of Therapeutic Use Exemption for your horse. I wonder if we should have something like that available? I remember having to fill out a form at a show once because my horse had been on an antibiotic within X days before the show, and I had to “declare” that but was still allowed to compete even though the substance would have resulted in a positive test. It was a long long time ago, and I can’t recall why that was allowed. On the one hand, it would allow horses with manageable medical conditions to compete. On the other hand, perhaps it would make cheating easier for some – I’m thinking of Lance Armstrong’s TUE for the steroid he tested positive for because they found some topical version of it and claimed that it was for saddle sores or something when he was not using it as such. There isn’t much difference there and saying oh, that steroid was from a scratches cream for my horse and see this vet said it was ok.

To the OP, the difference between censure and suspension is that a censure is a public reprimanding but does not affect the person’s ability to keep participating in the sport. Suspension does for a limited time, and then the most extreme is to get a lifetime ban from the sport.

[HiddenAcres]

Inca & BAC- I agree about the suspension starting immediately and that if someone cheats once they will be more likely to do so again.

The “punishment” is so removed from the offense, it does not make any sense as a deterrent to bad actors.

[HiddenAcres]

IPEsq - thanks for explaining the difference. So Jimmy Torrano can go anywhere USEF with no date issues with a censure, and Shane George will not be able to go on the grounds of USEF events during his 2 month suspension next spring. Will he be able to do the AQHA stuff? Do the two groups trade information at all? I guess if it wasn’t an AQHA show they would not be concerned.

[IPEsq]

I don’t know the answer, but it’s possible AQHA would honor USEF’s decision and give its own suspension. Hard to say, since AQHA isn’t on the list of “affiliate” organization of USEF. I think of it kind of like with my professional license. If one state in which I am a member of the bar association suspends me for doing something bad in that state, then it is quite likely I would become suspended in another state in which I hold a license, even though the other state is not bound to follow the ruling made in the first state.

[Plumcreek]

I believe AQHA only has reciprocal agreements with APHA (the Paints) and the National Snaffle Bit Association, maybe PHBA (Palominos) . Not that many people in AQHA cross over to USEF rated shows.

2 months is a vacation, and plenty of time to get clients situated with surrogate trainers to show during that period.

[Summit_Springs_Farm]

http://www.phelpssports.com/viewarticle.php?id=10006088

interesting

[HiddenAcres]

I think Findeight already referenced that

[QUOTE=findeight;7672442]
Theory is it’s used as a upper, not a downer. No doubt it came off a $20 in the grooms pocket:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

[gottagrey]

I just read some information about Jay Land’s suspension/fine from USEF for the same thing in his daughter’s horse. It was determined based on the levels in the horse (a lower threshold than what the FAA allows airline pilots) was consistent with environmental contamination vs. direct administration (the drug showed up in urine sample, not blood, and since it was only in the horse’s urine if was not performance enhancing (blood). The Lands spent a good chunk of change trying to clear their name and more importantly to find out how/why on earth their horse tested positive. It might be worth mentioning that the USEF has a zero tolerance / a trace is too much. I have no idea whether Shane George intentionally used the drug on the horse, if it was environmental or what but from what I’ve read about some of the rulings the cases are not always clear cut. For Pete’s sake my horse loves Cool Ranch Doritos - if he got a hold of a handful of Doritos and was tested, I’d be fined. My fine and ruling would have the sinful ingredient listed out in my suspension, people would gasp at my using performance enhancing drugs when the culprit was a seemingly benign bag of Cool Ranch Doritos. Now I’m not saying there are not dirtballs out there, I’m saying that sometimes there is more to the story (or ruling) than meets the eye.

[gumshoe]

Because only grooms would consort with drug dealers. Certainly not the beautiful people. :no:

[QUOTE=findeight;7672442]
Theory is it’s used as a upper, not a downer. No doubt it came off a $20 in the grooms pocket:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:[/QUOTE]