Canadian Hunters vs American Hunters

You see this as praise… I see it as a statement of sad reality.

You can’t declare Canadian hunters (which includes not only the horses, but the breeders, riders, and trainers) inferior and expect not to step on more than a few toes. That’s not realistic.

[QUOTE=overthemoon;7262382]
You see this as praise… I see it as a statement of sad reality.

You can’t declare Canadian hunters (which includes not only the horses, but the breeders, riders, and trainers) inferior and expect not to step on more than a few toes. That’s not realistic.[/QUOTE]
The people that you mention are realistic. They sell the top quality horses south, often for prices the Canadian market won’t bear. When they purchase US horses, they say “they will win at home”. It works both ways.

I’m only surprised that I have stepped on more toes than the author, who declared the horses uncompetitive, portrayed the trainers as ignorant of both our rules and their own, and capped the whole thing off with the worst picture she could find. Go figure.

[QUOTE=CBoylen;7262394]
I’m only surprised that I have stepped on more toes than the author, who declared the horses uncompetitive, portrayed the trainers as ignorant of both our rules and their own, and capped the whole thing off with the worst picture she could find. Go figure.[/QUOTE]

I know, right? That picture was terrible. G’ah. If I was riding hunters in Canada, I would be seriously upset about that picture. I didn’t even read the article for days because it was such an awful picture. Then someone I know posted about it and their comment drew made me read.

Don’t get me wrong, I did not enjoy the article, it was an opinion piece, some parts I agreed with and some I did not. I’m not sure which trips the author watched at the Royal but I saw some winning trips that would pin down south. I also saw some trips in the Derbies that went the American way (ahem Bayview) as the author described it; big stride, barely moving, etc., but they weren’t rewarded. The judges picked Prudence who jumped the snot out of everything, and the big, beautiful, and handy Judgement Day 3E. As far as the ponies? I fell in love with Cherrybrook Skye Blue all over again - they also finished 11 at the 2013 USEF Pony Finals.

Anyway, no ones perfect, there are top horses in each country, there are clean horses in each country, and there are drugged horses in each country.

Canadian hunter here who has shown at the Royal in the very division discussed in the article, the ammy owners. Here’s a round of mine for reference’s sake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOae7RkVBoQ

My horse had never been to indoors before and was pretty traumatized, having never really left the Canadian prairies up until that point. She wasn’t given anything prior to this round - no Perfect Prep, no Chill, and definitely nothing illegal. She went around a bit like a stiff wooden board, partly because she was scared to death and partly because, well, warming up at the Royal sucks. It’s worse than even Harrisburg or Kentucky.

So essentially, I am the person that the blogger is talking about in her article, and I have to disagree with her. The horses at the Royal aren’t more fresh because they aren’t on drugs. Here’s the same horse in the A/Os in a more familiar environment to her, not on drugs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkhNa3_mhgs She’s much more relaxed and calm, because she’s in a place that she knows, being piloted again by her amateur owner (me) who is the only person she’s ever known. She doesn’t get a training ride from a BNT hunter pro, doesn’t go to the entire indoor circuit and just is a bit green to that environment, like lots of the horses in Toronto are. It’s not a drugs vs. no drugs issue. I’ll elaborate:

Here’s what I think the difference(s) are:

Like CBoylen said, it can be a matter of quality. My horse is not and will never be Rumba, Jersey Boy, etc.

Also, Canada’s population is much smaller. We have three provinces that have an actual focus on producing quality hunters out of 10 (plus three territories) and the population of all of those combined is likely less than some US cities. Where I come from, there are no older ammy owners, small juniors, etc. etc.

We have the junior/amateur hunters. That’s the younger small juniors, younger large juniors, older small juniors, older large juniors, ammy owners 18-35, ammy owners 36-50 and ammy owners 50+ all combined. Would you like to know how many entrants were in the division the last time I entered it? 3.

Good luck campaigning and developing a nice hunter with that.

Back to the fact that my horse isn’t Rumba combined with Canada’s small population: We simply don’t have the quantity of wealthy people here that you guys do down there to back the sport at that level and buy those horses. Sure, we have quite a few millionaires and a few billionaires and some do have that level of quality up here, but the small population does not allow for so much money to flow through the horse economy like it does in say, California, Florida or NY/NJ/CT.

The one valid difference that I do believe exists between Canada and the US in its drugging rules is Dex. I still don’t understand why the USEF allows horses to be shown on it. BUT, I also don’t think Dex is a be-all end-all difference maker. If I gave my horse Dex at the Royal, she wouldn’t have magically turned into Inclusive. She probably would have relaxed a little, but it’s not going to have THAT big of an effect on the horse.

When it comes to Canadians being reluctant to bring hunters up here from the states, I’d say that’s partially true, at least in my neck of the woods (Alberta). That’s also where the person who made the comment in the article is from. Up here, every barn in the area is pretty jumper-focused, for the reason I mentioned above (3 people in the combined division of juniors and amateurs at 3’6). Do you think most of those barns have a program to maintain a good hunter like, say, California would? No. When we’re stuck inside all winter and most trainers are catering to their jumper clients first and foremost, someone bringing up a horse that’s been in a bona fide hunter program for its life until that point may not thrive up in Alberta. We don’t have the man power up here OR the culture to make it happen.

I don’t think it’s because the horses down there are all drugged up to their eyeballs and are going to bug out the minute they hit Alberta and see the light. The issue lies more in the foundations of our hunter divisions (or lack there of) than a debate between American and Canadian drugging.

Lack of money? Ontario doesn’t seem to have this problem. We have a HUGE turnout at shows in all divisions. The hunter bug is here, staying and THRIVING.

@goodlife, your experience and honesty is really appreciated. Also, congratulations on the Royal- qualifying is an honour just in itself!

Something to consider here are the regions. Yes, Alberta has a jumper focus (Spruce Meadows anyone?) But we need to give ourselves more credit for the fantastic breeding and training that is happening throughout the country. Of course, not every horse will be a Rumba. But many of these hunter babies, greenies and older mounts have a lot of skill, talent and drive. This goes for our riders too.

It is incredibly challenging to compare US hunters to Canadian hunters. Different populations, showing opportunities etc. But to blankly state that the north is lacking in this realm? Not accurate. Plain and simple.

[QUOTE=kh209;7262566]
Lack of money? Ontario doesn’t seem to have this problem. We have a HUGE turnout at shows in all divisions. The hunter bug is here, staying and THRIVING.

@goodlife, your experience and honesty is really appreciated. Also, congratulations on the Royal- qualifying is an honour just in itself!

Something to consider here are the regions. Yes, Alberta has a jumper focus (Spruce Meadows anyone?) But we need to give ourselves more credit for the fantastic breeding and training that is happening throughout the country. Of course, not every horse will be a Rumba. But many of these hunter babies, greenies and older mounts have a lot of skill, talent and drive. This goes for our riders too.

It is incredibly challenging to compare US hunters to Canadian hunters. Different populations, showing opportunities etc. But to blankly state that the north is lacking in this realm? Not accurate. Plain and simple.[/QUOTE]

kh209 - I definitely admit to having little to no knowledge of the Ontario hunter scene aside from the Royal. I’m jealous that you have a thriving scene! If I venture out to the coast of BC, I can find some healthy competition but it just isn’t really sticking here in Alberta. Of course, there are some who are trying, but compared to California or Florida or New England, it’s night and day.

Also, I don’t think there’s a lack of money in general - just a lack of a LARGE population with lots of money, like in the USA. The US/Canada wealth gap is large - I think we have around 24 billionaires in the entire country rather than the 450 or so in the US. Not that you have to be a billionaire to participate, but it just speaks to the volume of wealthy people in each country.

I think the ratio of quality horses is similar in Canada and the states. However, because of the season’s in Canada you will see the majority of the really nice Canadian hunters show in the states. You would be surprised how many of the “nice US hunters” are actually Canadian bred.

However, with showing under US rules these Canadian hunters could certainly be under different medication status.

Saying Americans drug their horses is like saying Canadian’s don’t have quality horses. (insert the just kidding icon here)

And I think the population and the temperature would change the statistical information if anyone ever attempted a study.

PS when it gets cold here in Cali - around 65 degrees (LOL) my horses get a bit silly at first. When it’s normal - 100 degrees my horses are very quiet.

hmmm…
Interesting. None of mine have gone to the Royal. But they have gone up and down the West Coast and have come home with numerous tri-colors and derby ribbons. None of mine are drugged.
BUT in Canada we also have 1 big indoor show the entire year which is the Royal. The US have multiple, so our horses don’t get a chance to become accustom to it. So they’re obviously going to be stiff and a little spooked by the change in environment, the very narrow ring, the stands, the stabling, and all the things that go on around them. It’s not something we typically see in Canada. Our show year (locally) runs from April to September if we’re lucky. Most places in the US run all year round. It has nothing to do with drugging laws or any of that crap. Canadian horses just don’t have the same level of exposure to things the horses in the US do simple as that.

This debate reminds me of the years-long arguments that went on involving doping allegations in U.S. cycling, specifically against Lance Armstrong and his team. For years they denied the allegations and kept asserting that their dominance in the sport had nothing to do with drugs, instead it was asserted “we are just better” than other competitive cycling teams.

And now, with the lifetime ban in place against Lance Armstrong and others associated with the scandal, we will never know if they really were “better”, or just had a better advantage through pharmacology.

Carry on.

[QUOTE=lockedoutalter;7262122]
The part that got me thinking was the not even Canadians want to buy horses from us. They’d rather import from Europe as well - and not just because of the quality but due to the soundness issues they run into from Americans.

I think it’s a llittle true that the rest of the world sees us as using our horses as pin cushions because of our lax drug policies. Even if that’s not the truth, we definitely have a reputation.[/QUOTE]

I think Canadians don’t buy American simply because it would cost them more, not because of any soundness issues. A comparable horse in Canada is going to cost less than one in America. I’ve known a couple people go to Canada as a budget version of a European shopping trip because the horses are cheaper up there.

[QUOTE=HunterRider992;7262933]
I think Canadians don’t buy American simply because it would cost them more, not because of any soundness issues. A comparable horse in Canada is going to cost less than one in America. I’ve known a couple people go to Canada as a budget version of a European shopping trip because the horses are cheaper up there.[/QUOTE]

True - Americans for the most part don’t buy American either when looking for a serious young hunter.

The author did pick a terrible picture. I didn’t read the article at first either because with the picture next to the headline, all I could think was “wow, they aren’t producing the same hunters.” The next time someone wants to show Americans how it should be done, I would suggest finding a picture of a soft, scopey, expressive, attractive horse jumping in good form.

Can someone please answer my ketoprofen question? Am I not looking in the right spot? Are you allowed to just give as much as you want? Why are the regulations not following the allowed NSAID list like they are for Bute and Banamine?

I just read the guidelines for Equine Canada and do not see a maximum concentration either so as it reads, bute and banamine have restrictions on the amount you can give but ketofen and aspirin do not. If that is true, sort of shoots down the whole theory of more restrictive drug policies. Banning isoxsuprine and methocarbamol which have no negative side effects but allowing an unlimited amount of certain NSAIDS makes little sense from a horse welfare perspective. Anyone from Canada here who knows whether these guidelines are correct?
http://www.equinecanada.ca/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=5734&Itemid=88&lang=en

Apparently the author has never been to WIHS ? Where horses are stabled on a downtown street, schooling times might start at 2 or 3 AM. I also don’t think the author can make random statements about horse drugging in the US vs Canada without showing at least side-by-side comparisons of certain approved drug levels and banned drugs ?. For example the USEF allows certain levels of banamine or bute - are those levels equal to or greater than those in Canada, or less than in Canada. Perhaps Canada does more drug testing than that in the US - none of this was addressed in the article that I saw. Only that because a horse enters a ring at the Royal w/ his head up until the rider gets him more focused on the job at hand - somehow proves no or less drug use in Canada. So at WIHS a Jr. rider enters the ring her horse comes in looking all business about 4th fence - stops, stops again and is excused - does this mean the horse is obviously drugged? Or how about having the knowledge that that particular horse is awesome when it jumps around but if the kid does 't get it just right to the fence - it will stop… I’m not naive enough to think that drug use is not prevalent in showing… but I think the article was full of generalizations, opinion and not necessarily back up by facts.

Agree with some points on both sides. Disagree with some points on both sides. C’est la vie.

Our indoor series does well to prepare the horses for the reality that is WIHS. Cap Challenge is a very inviting indoor on a typical showground. Harrisburg bumps up the spookiness factor and funnels the horses into a smaller staging area. WIHS cranks the knobs on all of that, but by the third week in a row at the end of an 11 month circuit many are too tired to care. Which makes it very difficult to compare performances at the Royal to those at PNHS or WIHS.

But what intrigues me is how to classify this piece - is it article or opinion? I’ve kinda been trying to figure out what ProEquest is going/trying to be, news site or blog? Or is there a difference anymore? They obviously have correspondents in the field and they seem to be willing to throw a few more punches about than, say, COTH. They tried to get comments from professionals but the professionals were afraid of backlash… just wondering if we will see the “investigative” “journalism” (separate air quotes for both words) some would like to see from COTH come from them?

That is just a small pamphlet produced by Equine Canada to serve as a “guide”. You’d have to refer to the rule book and CPMA for details.

[QUOTE=tricolor;7263992]
I just read the guidelines for Equine Canada and do not see a maximum concentration either so as it reads, bute and banamine have restrictions on the amount you can give but ketofen and aspirin do not. If that is true, sort of shoots down the whole theory of more restrictive drug policies. Banning isoxsuprine and methocarbamol which have no negative side effects but allowing an unlimited amount of certain NSAIDS makes little sense from a horse welfare perspective. Anyone from Canada here who knows whether these guidelines are correct?
http://www.equinecanada.ca/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=5734&Itemid=88&lang=en[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=gumshoe;7264192]
That is just a small pamphlet produced by Equine Canada to serve as a “guide”. You’d have to refer to the rule book and CPMA for details.[/QUOTE]
Thus, my question if anyone knows if the guide is correct. I don’t feel like reading their rule book so thought that one of our Canadian friends might know.