Canter Pirouette work

[Tonja]

Relaxation

ToN Farm wrote:

What basics are not solidified? This is a good rider on a good horse being taught by a good trainer. The video shows a good, normal training session, as MickeyDoodle stated.

The element that predominantly stands out to me as missing is relaxation. Relaxation allows for the deep bending of the haunches but more importantly, it helps protect the horse’s body from undue wear. The constraint of the horse’s neck is actually preventing the haunches from engaging sufficiently to allow for the collection required for the pirouette. I understand the concern expressed in this thread.

[Kathy_Johnson]

I think the rider has a nice seat and, even if the horse may not be enough, the trainer is calm, cool and collected. I have keen but not so fond memories of some of my early pirouettes, where my body was flying every where and my horse was scampering in a “turn around the middle.” I do not think my coach was quite so polite. Thank goodness no one video taped or put me on You Tube.

I do, as always, have some concerns where the purity of the gait is affected, and when the horse in the video cross-canters several times in one direction, it indicates a lack of strength to carry the pirouette on that hind leg I am sure the trainer is working on it, and uses other exercises to improve this, including larger circles, 1/4 turns, etc. It will be great to see the progress of this pair.

[Gucci_Cowgirl]

nobody is saying not to establish a very solid pirouette canter before starting to add the turn.

my point is that everyone here is saying that this rider should not be even starting to work on pirouettes at this point. if you wait until everything is perfect you might as not be doing dressage.

I truly believe that the better the canter is, the better the pirouettes, changes, half passes etc will be. BUT you have to start somewhere and a slight loss of rhythm/suppleness/quality of the canter is expected when starting to train the pirouettes.

I have never met one young horse who was able to have the strength, suppleness, self carriage and rhythm to maintain a perfect canter it’s first couple tries doing pirouettes. It is unrealistic and foolish to expect that every stride of every pirouette is going to have the same quality canter as a horse that is travelling straight ahead when learning them.

if all horses learned perfect pirouettesfrom only practicing the pirouette canter, why would anyone have to train the pirouette? why wouldnt they just school the canter and add the turn once they are in their test at a competition?

Because it takes more strength, balance, suppleness and carriage to maintain honest bend and balance while turning on the spot. much more than just cantering straight ahead. JMHO

[angel]

TonF asked: What basics have not yet been established? The answers are:1) that the horse is not yet correctly working into contact is the work must be done with the curb engaged; 2) the rider’s seat is not yet stable enough for Fourth Level canter work, and that instability is keeping the horse on its forehand. Until the rider’s seat is stable, it cannot be used to ride the horse up into correct contact for collection.

[BaroquePony]

The “basics” that I do not see start with the rider. Actually they start with her instructor for not having established the foundation for this rider to use her aids (hands, seat, back, core muscles and legs) correctly.

I see the rider’s legs just hanging down. While they are under her hip (more or less) where they should be, she does not use them effectively, or at all. She is overriding her horse (pumping the saddle) with her seat and getting in front of his rythym. She has not learned to effectively allow her spine to “ripple” and absorb the motion of her horse’s spine, and as a result cannot keep her seat in the saddle firmly, where it should be. Because she cannot keep her seat in the saddle, she is not able to use her hips to guide her horse through the canter or the pirouette or perform correct “through” half halts, and it is the reason she is not able to use her legs effectively. It is also the reason she is not able to use her hands effectively.

She does not have her horse “between her hands and legs” or “on the aids properly” or whatever else you want to call it. Her horse is not “in front of her leg”.

The result of this is that her horse is stiff and stuggling to get off the ground, so to speak. Neither horse nor rider are as relaxed and supple as they should be, and need to be, in order to have the impulsion and elastic mobilty necessary to perform collected canter correctly and the canter pirouette. The horse is not able to activley use his hocks in order to perform even the first one to two strides of the pirouette correctly. He is not able to use his hocks actively so that he does not fall out of rythym as he collects for the turn.

Until a rider is proficient at putting a horse correctly on the aids, they should not be schooling higher level movements.

Schooling these movements incorrectly over time usually does cause harm to the horse. Yes, some horses survive it none the worse for the wear. Most do not.

I have no problem with mistakes and minor difficulties. Dressage is about training the horse. However, in classical riding it is usually considered respectful of the horse to become a proficient rider BEFORE asking for the more difficult movements.

angel, Tonja, Happy Feet and ideayoda know exactly what they are talking about.

[oldbag]

BaroquePony, that was a really negative stream of consiousness. Not helpful to man or beast. Also I most definately disagree with just about every word of that rant.

[slc2]

i’m going with the old bag on this one.

And i don’t think the negative remarks are more knowledgeable or accurate than the one’s that are more positive…I would say the opposite, actually.

I learned long, long ago that ‘fault hunting’ is a very, very easy way to go…and totally unproductive. Self aggrandizing and clever sounding, bound to attract certain groupies because of that ‘better than thou’ aura, and totally unproductive.

The only thing that makes riders better is by trying new work.

Long ago we were watching a gal get a lesson. She was very loose in the saddle, and just learning dressage. The instructor had her do a leg yield. She was quite loose and got out of position.

The instructor said, ‘come on, maintain your position better than that! You see, you do that all the time, kind of lean your weight to one side! And when you leg yield it sticks out like a sore thumb!’

You could see exactly when she got that message and started ‘fighting for it’ (not fighting the horse, fighting herself).

She stopped for a breath and shouted out, ‘Man! I had no idea I was so loose and off up there! I felt okay on the circle and straight lines!’

‘SEEEEE???’ yelled the instructor.

We saw her ride again in two weeks and it was amazing how much she had improved. My friend said, ‘I never would have let her leg yield.’, and the instructor said, ‘Yeah, exactly, and it would have been that much longer before she improved then!’

Riders develop by doing the work; good instruction is a series of opening-up-the-kimono events that show the rider what he needs to do and put him in a position where he has to do it, or its years and years of doing nothing and being very frustrated and going nowhere, like most people do.

[Happy_Feet]

Gucci - Sure she could start some work, when the canter quality improved/returned (maybe it was just a bad day, or previous work on p’s that we didn’t see was the culprit). Why not schooling some haunches in on a circle, or a step or two of a smaller turn, to do a small half pirouette when it’s obviously too much too soon, will only shake the horses confidence, and teach him incorrect work.

I totally understand what you are saying. I agree, but in this case I just see to many problems to continue, especially in the mannner which is being told to her.

[PlayTheOdds]

The seat is not bad, and neither is is a problem. The seat is being pushed out of the saddle because the horse is not supple, especially in his hand legs. The pirouette canter isn’t truly sitting, but you do have to start somewhere, so start here, and then add more bending of the hind legs and ‘sitting’ as the horse develops the concept of waiting under the seat.

The problem I have is that you should never repeatedly ‘spin’ the horse to the point of losing the balance and the purity of the canter. Start larger, with maybe haunches in on the circle, to help the horse become more supple in the hind legs, and then gradually as him for smaller until he is capable and confident.

But what happens in the end of this video is simply teaching the horse a bad habit, to repeatedly swap behind. Stop this before it’s a problem.

[exvet]

As one who is currently in the same spot of our journey as the rider in the video I really want to thank the OP for posting it. My horse and I have been working on our canter pirouettes as well. All I can say is that they are coming. As with all things it seems one direction is better than the other. I trust my riding instructor implicitly and am happy with our progress though we have a long, long way to go. It is helpful to see someone else at the same stage of their development with their horse and appreciate some common challenges as well as (sheepishly admitting) nice to see there are some inherent problems my horse and I seem to be avoiding. Though the knit picking and back biting that is going on here definitely prevents me from ever wanting to post a video of us working through the same exercise I also have learned a ton from reading the comments on how and what to do to improve/correct the issue. So as I head out to take my lesson this morning on my downhill, sway back beast who should never have marred the scene of dressage especially the auspices of classical dressage as I read here, we’ll take these tidbits and do our best to put them to good use. The rider in the video definitely has a much more talented horse than I and I dare say she makes a much more elegant picture despite the humbling fact of not being perfect. I take my hat off to her for not only trying but being willing to take it public.

[Gucci_Cowgirl]

Just FYI, I wasn’t talking about this particular rider. I haven’t even watched the video. I was just responding in general to those who were saying you can’t even start to train a 1/4 turn without having an abcolutely perfect pirouette canter that is so established it could sustain a nuclear attack. (or a turn)

but yes, absolutely the rider needs a very independant seat, as well as independant legs and hands…every body part must be able to do their individual jobs but work as one unit, without contradicting each other.

not so easy.

[Gucci_Cowgirl]

@slc2;3307706

i’m going with the old bag on this one.

The only thing that makes riders better is by trying new work.

We saw her ride again in two weeks and it was amazing how much she had improved. My friend said, ‘I never would have let her leg yield.’, and the instructor said, ‘Yeah, exactly, and it would have been that much longer before she improved then!’

Riders develop by doing the work; good instruction is a series of opening-up-the-kimono events that show the rider what he needs to do and put him in a position where he has to do it, or its years and years of doing nothing and being very frustrated and going nowhere, like most people do.

did you just call me an old bag? :eek:

or were you agreeing with someone else who said the exact same thing I did?

[ToN_Farm]

@"slc"

And i don’t think the negative remarks are more knowledgeable or accurate than the one’s that are more positive…I would say the opposite, actually.

I learned long, long ago that ‘fault hunting’ is a very, very easy way to go…and totally unproductive. Self aggrandizing and clever sounding, bound to attract certain groupies

Agree, especially about the ‘groupies’ most of which never trained a horse to do pirouettes. I wonder how many times some of these posters replayed that video frame-by-frame in order to pick apart every little mistake in the rider’s seat. I didn’t, because I could see from playing it twice, everything I needed to see. I could put myself in the rider’s seat, because I have experienced similar things. So have some of you that are supporting the work on this video. To say this rider doesn’t have a good seat is just flat out inaccurate. This is a top trainer, and imo she knows what she is doing.

I also very much agree with the poster that said that one must school the canter pirouette and that ability to canter on the spot is not going to automatically give you the canter P. The bend adds a whole new element of complexity.

[slc2]

that’s for sure! with a less bendy horse i did a lot of very small circles, and getting OUT of that small circle well before the canter started to lose energy. There are three parts of pirouette. Maintaining the canter. Turning around. bending. Alot of times you can turn your shoulders to the outside with pirouette to get it to turn. Counterintuitive, and works.

One of the cleverest little exercises in the world looks terribly stupid and elementary - do a walk pirouette, and canter, and spiral out. Don’t even TRY to do a canter pirouette. Just walk, walk, walk, pirouette - CANTER. The other one is the canter square. Not really a pirouette yet, but boy does it help, especially the big long ‘collection is not my middle name’ type horse.

In reality, EVERYTHING looks like crap when you start schooling it, for everyone, even for the SRS. Absolutely crap, absolutely everything. Flying changes, zig zag, pirouette, ALL OF IT. Whether the horse is green, the rider is green, or both. And it stays that way for a very, very long time!

The only difference between the experienced and inexperienced is how long it looks like crap, LOL. It ALWAYS looks like crap for a while!

The OTHER difference is the really experienced person, when a rider is learning something, doesn’t scream how bad it is, he sits there and smiles because he’s been right there himself, and he knows, and he says, ‘you can do it, come on, try’, instead of ‘you need to take up knitting’.

You start a piaffe, it looks like a drunk horse that needs a wheel alignment. Its butt bobs up and down like a pump handle. The rider learns to piaffe by going through various periods of having his knees in his chin, wobbling around like a weeble, and failing completely to get the horse to piaffe without doing the ah ‘nasty’ up there in the saddle, pumping and pumping.

then they get better.

What people don’t get who haven’t gone up the levels, is you can’t go back to a lower level to fix alot of things. You have to do it here, in this work.

That’s because your seat was fine for 2nd level, your degree of energy throughness, bend, straightness, it was all fine at the previous level. This work demands MORE…of everything.

Sure. Your rein length was fine for training level. Now you have to change to do first level. Your half halts were lovely, UNTIL you started to do medium gaits, now you can’t stop to save your life. Your seat was lovely, TIL you finally got an extended trot, now you’re fighting to not wind up hanging upside down under the horse. Your lengthening was lovely, and now trying to do a medium, you feel like an asshat. Your transitions were beautiful til you had to do one at the medium canter and get a flying change at X…now you’re careening at a solid wall screaming for someone to come get you off this particular carnival ride, and NOTHING happened when you did a half halt before x.

WELCOME TO DRESSAGE!

The reason we HAVE pirouette, piaffe, zig zag, ALL of it, is NOT for itself. It is because each level of work requires you to refine your basics even more.

When you start asking for the amount of ‘carry’ and ‘sit’ required to do a pirouette, the canter for the pirouette ALWAYS pops you out of the saddle more, you can’t fix this by going back because this is a different canter.

If the girl in the leg yield story had just continued doing circles forever, she never would have gotten better. The work forces you to. It’s like saying you can teach a horse to be collected by not being collected - it’s impossible. it doesn’t work.

All of it, it’s always a work in progress, on everything.

[BaroquePony]

I definately agree that a rider needs to always be trying SOME new things. And 90% of the time a new thing is not going to be spot on the first try, but I have seen the second request for a new thing to be spot on at least through part of the given movement … and then it may fall apart a bit. BUT, the horse at least understands at that point what you are asking.

I do not agree with allowing incorrect movements to continue without going back to something that is working correctly and then trying again.

I have seen many types of riders from many types of backgrounds begin to take dressage seriously, and it does not take that much longer to explain the importance of the independent seat as the foundation for all of it. There are exercises and reminders that every rider should have knowledge of in order to maintain an effective seat throughout their dressage career on a horse at any level. I do not see that on this video.

And videos can be excellent training tools.

Sorry I have aggrevated a few, but I get really tired of hearing how great something is when it seems to be missing the foundation.

[slc2]

“the horse is on the forehand because of the unstable seat”

ok, this one really got us rolling on the floor. if this girls seat is unstable, the rest of the dressage world needs to just quit and take up knitting. in fact, her seat is very decent. if this horse is on the forehand, i have some ocean front property in iowa to sell you!

THAT REMARK reminded me of the time i had some smartass over for dinner and we watched tapes of reiner klimke riding ahlerich in the highest scoring test of his entire frikkin life!

‘who the f*** is that old guy? god, he’s so loose in the saddle, LOOK at him flopping around, MY GOD, his ass is popping out of the saddle, he looks like crap, why do they let people like that compete at that level, MY GOD!’

i mentioned it to my trainer, she laughed her ass off, ‘YEAH, and that’s why the horses LIKE him so much, because he’s soft up there, he’s soft, supple, the HORSES love it’. that was accompanied with the tale of the (international) coach who ran up, grabbed my friend’s leg and started screaming, ‘look, betty moved her leg! call the wire services!’ you HAVE to be able to move and be soft and supple.

i’d MUCH rather see someone’s butt pop out of the saddle than see them sit like a statue and drill two holes in their horse’s back! at least they’re not killling the damn horse’s back!

The problem is that your whole concept of what an effective rider is, and what they look like at any point in their development… is… wacked.

“the curb has to be engaged to do this work”

you’re not really serious are you? come on, even my SO laughed at that one. we do pirouettes in the snaffle and with the curb rein ‘turned off’ all the time.

the curb bit doesn’t make collection, you have to be able to ride the whole GP test in snaffle to say it is schooled right. if you think you have to have the curb rein - what? ‘engaged’ to do a pirouette, you are going down a very, very bad track that’s not going to help you advance.

" i don’t like praise when the foundation is missing’.

But that is EXACTLY where I saying you are wrong. You’re saying, ok, I could have been more polite about it, I’m saying, you’re just wrong. Polite or not, you’re wrong.

Number one. Praise is ALWAYS in order.

Whether it’s bad or good, whether you’ve done it or not, praise is always in order. Why the hell treat a rider like crap if you treat horses well? Do you expect a horse to get better with nothing but picking and criticism? Then why would a rider respond to it?

Number two. When you haven’t done the work, you can expect to get some blowback if you criticize it. Sure you’re free to criticize, but don’t expect everyone to agree with you, especially when they’ve done the work and you haven’t. It’s VERY POSSIBLE that your POV is wrong, if you haven’t done the work, it’s easy to make a lot of assumptions.

Number three. Perhaps you’ve been very frustrated in your efforts to move up, maybe that’s why you’re so hyper critcial of those doing so.

Number four. There’s a time to start working on the next thing. She’s ready to work on this.

Number five. It benefits YOU NOT AT ALL to just find fault - with anyone or anything. NOTHING. All it does is make you negative. You have to be able to get a more balanced view. What’s right? You didn’t even try to find that.

Here’s some hints. The horse is doing the work. The horse is straight. The horse is in a very appropriate gait (amt of power). The horse is not pulling. The horse is very, very obedient. The rider is sitting up straight and even in the saddle. The rider is not losing her temper. The rider is learning something new and is not acting like an asshat. The instructor is giving VERY appropriate guidance. With that sort of instructor, this girl doesn’t need ANY criticism from ANYONE, because the instructor can handle it.

It’s not that the foundation is missing at all. You think so because you haven’t done this work.

The foundation is there - for the previous level. Look how bloody straight the horse is when she goes on the long side. She’s ready, the horse is ready, so once again, it’s time for the shit to hit the fan, and things to look like shit again. This is what moving up is.

You may have some very romantic view of it because you haven’t done it, or because someone has been blowing sunshine up your overalls, I don’t know, but it’s you that’s on the wrong track.

You know what happens when the best trained rider in the world does the GP zig zag for the first time? His damned horse runs right through the other end of the ring, he will leave out the last 3-4 ZIGS, or something ELSE goes horribly to shit. Welcome to dressage! It isn’t easy, and moving up isn’t pretty!

I’m guessing you dont like it because the horse’s head is up and he’s doing a very soft, short canter. His head is up because that’s the way he’s built, and the short soft canter with out excess power is perfect for her to learn on. Her butt pops out of the saddle because she’s learning the pirouette canter.

[Happy_Feet]

Oh boy. Didn’t play anything frame by frame. Yeah just because I see some pretty basic things in that work that needs to be addressed must mean I am a training level rider or never trained a horse to do a canter pirouette. :eek:
Yep that 70% at PSG must have been someone else!
Silly really. The op posted this video for input. Yep good for her for trying it, good for for getting this far with 5 kids and 2 dogs. Yep, everyone starts somewhere. I am commenting on some basics that I would like to see improved upon, not saying they are terrible or she is a terrible rider or its a terrible horse. Practice doesn’t make perfect, perfect practice make perfect.
The bringing the hindlegs together i nthe pirouette not terribly worrisome to me - that happens in new pirouettes, The lose of rythem not terrible worrie some - same reason, but the hindlegs constistantly jumping up and out while the curb tight, and the horse becoming more backed off throughout the work, that is a big red flag to me. Every trainer has their own priorities in training, what they will address immediately, what they leave for another day, and what they want to reward. To me, the desire to move forward though the movement is more important than making a pirouette small and now…

[slc2]

do you have beginners ride on the bit before they can keep their hands from bouncing up and down? do they do pirouettes before learning to post?

[ideayoda]

Without a (highly) collectible canter (and ease in balanced lateral movements) the P will be problematic, and actions will tend to bandaid the exercise rather than solve the root cause. A horse that can do a good pesade can likely do a good effort at P). Collection does not mean slowing/short (which we are all want to do), but active hindlegs with a relatively same tempo then shorter and shorter strides. Only with that in line can the P be successful. If the tempo slows too much the horse will either break to walk, fall against a rein and change, or the rider will end up overly active (in their seat), so the rider must go back to the preconditions for the P. Bending laterally in P is minimal, bending the hindleg joints (rather than bracing under) is necessary (hence the necessity of properly developed hh and collection in the first place). Too much bending and the horse fall out or side behind and onto the shoulder/slowing. The horse must be up/open/taking the hh/straight with positioning in order to remain in P, but not shortened/lowered/hollowed/slowed. All difficult things to learn.

Praise should be given for getting (even somewhat closer to) certain (positive) elements of any exercise (ie great x, try more of y/z). This (element/part of the puzzle) is correct, this exercise (y) will form the basis of work for next element. But the seat(bones) must be stilled and (posture) maintained for extreme collection (piaffe/pirouettes/etc) and supported by the position/timing of the leg(s).

As far as baroques negative comments, they might be stated in the negative (so the mind cannot make a picture of how to change), so she might want to restate the same information in a different way (so it is perceived differently): Example to replace her phrasing: “The rider might to do further work in order to stabilize the pelvis (to replace the slight pumping action). If she feels the need to be more active in the pelvis then she could try to realign the spine/pelvis or touch with the whip to support active canter. Or double back to transitions within the gait to reestablish the purity of gait and greater energy in the hindlegs. That will help the horse remain more up/open before undertaking the P one more. Those modifications will then help a quicker response to the touch of the calf within a P and keep the horse in front of the leg/more balanced, and able to response more effectively which reduces the stress on the horses (joints).”

For SURE P require all the facilitites of the past being called into interaction, it is not an easy movement (you can buy piaffe, you have to ride P). How to do a walk P combined with riding a suspended active canter with alignment/reactivity of good lateral work all at once along with mnimal action of any body part, just with pround posture!!! No mean feat!

So before any rider undertakes canter P: 1. can they ride a really good walk pirouette with a steady tempo with ease (with pulsed aids, not pushing ones)? 2 Is the canter collectible from merely sitting taller? 3. Does the horse do really good shoulder in/travers? On a circle? 4 Does the horse stay up and open from hh, or does it tend to shorten/drop/curl? 5 Does the horse stay straight when collected? 6. Can the rider stay long in the leg, position rather than draw up or hold an aid? 7 Does the horse easily react to touches from the leg?

As far as the comment about the engaged curb, I would tend to disagree. Engaging a curb is used to support to actions, lowering the neck or immediate light (lateral) flexion. Imho this horse needs neither of those. The snaffle on the other hand keeps better straightness and more effective hh and the horse out to the bridle.

When the trainer/rider makes things (slightly) more difficult (without losing balance) then the difficult seems to become less difficult, slowly we advance and trust our reactions.

I would agree the horse is straight(ened), but there has to be a fall back to #4 on the TS, sustain the impulsion. Without 1/2/3/4/5 of the training scale collection cannot be sustained. And it is too easy to use the double in order to try to enforce #6 (collection). The question is WHAT degree of collection. Horses are way to easily shortened/slowed in their stride(s), but activity/hindleg joint flexion/keeping the horse up and open, not so easy. And therein is the heart of collection. It is not just about doing the movements (esp what we often see at second) but doing them more effectively based on better and better equitation/balance/timing/knowledge of what balance/exercise leads to what next level.

[Happy_Feet]

[QUOTE=slc2;3308079]
do you have beginners ride on the bit before they can keep their hands from bouncing up and down? do they do pirouettes before learning to post?[/QUOTE]

Right… But you allow your students to do canter pirouettes before they have a horse that understands how to engage it’s hindlegs and sit - because you can only make those better by doing em over and over!